Thats A Personally View....I Rather "Play The [censored] so That The [censored] May Bite Back"

Not really related, but I have decided that when I make my own house mod, I'm going to impale some Thalmor on stakes outside the door.

If the thalmor have such a large force. Why didn't they send it after Red ring and completely annihilate the emperor plunging the world into chaos? They want to eliminate mankind after all. Do you just like surrendering for [censored word] and giggles?

And why didn't they deploy that force in Hammerfell?

"Although victorious, the Imperial armies were in no shape to continue the war. The entire remaining Imperial force was gathered in Cyrodiil, exhausted and decimated by the Battle of the Red Ring. Not a single legion had more than half its soldiers fit for duty. Two legions had been effectively annihilated, not counting the loss of the Eighth during the retreat from the Imperial City the previous year. Titus II knew that there would be no better time to negotiate peace, and late in 4E 175 the Empire and the Aldmeri Dominion signed the White-Gold Concordat, ending the Great War.

The terms were harsh, but Titus II believed that it was necessary to secure peace and give the Empire a chance to regain its strength."
The Thalmors forces were Injured There Main Attack Force was Destroyed By Mede (His plan was considered Genuis)

He was given a choice. He could side with Ulfric, or Ulfric would take the city. He chose to side with the empire. I was sad about it, but it didn't have to be that way. Ulfric himself seemed pretty upset at Balgruff's decision and was not looking forward to attacking the city, but he had to in order to gain that position. I felt sorry for Balgruff for about 5 seconds, but in the end he was his own downfall.

this thread has made me realize that bethesda should have skipped that whole alduin atrocity of a main quest and just focused on the civil war. dragons really dont need an apocalyptic excuse for returning, they could have just been back because there are no cliff racers in skyrim, because akatosh defeating mehrunes in OB reversed the polarity of the universe or whatever, or just because they bloody well wanted to return; their main purpose is just to be a recurring random enemy same as any other anyway. you being dragonborn wouldnt mean you will undeniably save the world for undeniable evil undeniably, but make you more akin to the nerevarine where its your connection to a local legend and the respect that inspires that makes you "special". whoever you side with would certainly give the nords something to ponder... if the dovahkiin joins the empire, maybe it is in the best interest of skyrim? if he joins the rebels, then could how could any able-bodied nord call themselves anything but a traitor for not fighting alongside him?

the civil war is a real catch-22; skyrim will certainly have to contend with the thalmor at one point, and united with the empire they would have a much better chance. but, this is also the same empire that surrendered in the first place and abandoned their own client nation(hammerfell) just to save their own skins. the game throws these little bits of info to give you pause for thought, like ulfric's dossier and markarth, but in the end you cant really condone or condemn either side for singular incidents. just seeing how people discuss the pros and cons of both sides you can tell its a much more involving story than dovahkiin vs big bad dragons.

Unlike Ulfric, Balgruuf did what was right. Balgruuf cares for his people... all of them, not just the nords. He isn't an agent of the thalmor like Ulfric is. He didn't force the Thalmor to start cracking down on Talos worship to fuel a rebellion, in fact he has a damn statue of the guy right in the middle of his town. Ulfric was upset about attacking because he KNEW Balgruuf was a good man and a true nord.

Ulfric isn't an agent of the Thalmor, he's an asset. Unless that bit about becoming uncooperative after the Markath Incident was more nefarious than I thought it was.

However, you're correct about Balgruuf caring about his people. When the dragons attacked, he risked the chance that he could be seen as joining the Stormcloaks just to protect Riverwood. Ulfric on the other hand launches a massive civil war which costs the lives of hundreds all for what, to make himself High King and protect a handful of traditions? Selfishness and an abstract concept over the common good. All justifications I've seen have ignored that plenty of Nords didn't want this fight, that all of Skyrim isn't unified behind Ulfric's vision, and that he essentially stripped Skyrim's ability to defend itself away. He's an immoral creep next to honorable compassionate men like Balgruuf.

After finding out the details of the http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:The_Bear_of_Markarth, I really, really don't think Ulfric becoming high king will be any good for Skyrim.

I can see lots of purges and assorted other pogroms taking place if that were to happen. The guy is toxic.

I rather prefer Balgruuf to any of them myself. I was happy with his neutrality - to the point I won't do either "main faction" questline. I play now (on all my toons.... 10 and counting....) a complete neutral - I won't advance either Stormcloak or Empire, and I kill Thalmor if they even get close. The whole problem with this little war is the Thalmor....

I think Bethesda tried to make both sides good choices and actually failed and made both sides bad choices.

Side 1 (Stormcloaks) - seems to be racist or at least a little xenophobic. Leader seems to be in bed with the 'real' bad boys (Thalmor). Mad at the empire because in order to save everyone (avoid annihilation) they turned there back on thier god (Talos). Some of there own people are with the 'invading force' but on the whole they want to be freed. Basically the French in WWII. The good points are they are the locals fighting off an invading force and they didn't try and execute an innocent man (our character) at the beginning of the game.

Side 2 (Imperials) - seem to be indiscrimant killers (tried to kill the character at the beginning of the game). Cut ties with the old gods to save themselves and now want everyone to do the same. Forcing their decisions on their 'colonies'. Don' t allow religious freedom. Taxing without representation (oh wait, maybe not). They are mostly the British Empire during its colonization phase. The good points are that they are tying to keep everyone safe and build a strong force to fight off the 'real' bad guys (Thalmor).

What they needed to do was have a better start to the game where they focused on the good points of both sides instead of making us despise side 2 right off the bat (they tried to kill me for bleep's sake) and then during the initial phase of the main quest we find the book (dossier) that talks about the leader of the second group possibly being in bed with the real bad guys (I hate traitors). This could've been done pretty easily. At the beginning talk about the guy they executed and how he had killed a bunch of people (and some kids), was a bad guy and then when they get to you (where you give set your name and race), not know who you are and tell you they will release you after the execution (but of course the dragon attacks before this can happen). Then you should have to follow the stormcloak initially where he talks about how the executed guy was a 'bad person' but that the stormcloaks are mostly good guys trying to obtain their religious freedom to worship Talos.

Then during the initial main quest lines, while working with Delphine she could give the pros and cons of the two sides showing them both in the best possible light (Imperials fighting for the greater good, worried about the big evil (Thalmor), Stormcloaks fighting for their god and tradition). This would allow you to choose which one you as a person prefer or which one your particular character would have followed (if you were choosing to role play a 'holy warrior/paladin' type or a Nord you would go stormcloak).

Then I would feel good about choosing either, right now I have not done the civil war quests, because I do not like or agree with either group.

Well.... I absolve the Empire of intent as regards one's character during the game opener. After all, following along from previous games, you had to start as a prisoner, and walking into an Imperial ambush of Stormcloak partisans actually provided a really good way to get you into the game - as well as giving you a choice of who to follow even though both Stormcloak (Ralof) and Imperial (Hadvar) ultimately get you the same place.... Riverwood, then Whiterun.

Thing is.... the Imperial attitude toward your character and the horse thief isn't at all unusual in the real world. You are considered to be a partisan of those with whom you associate. The fact that in this case you stumbled into an ambush isn't really germane to the prevalent attitude.... We ALL know how it is to be in the wrong place at the wrong time!

Not to mention, of course, the fact that one bad officer does not a bad army make. The captain was just following her orders - given by Tullius no doubt. And the most interesting congruence to me - that Ralof and Hadvar are from the same small town....

You are far more forgiving then I am, what the empire did to the character would be similar to being in a bar when a drug bust goes down and you being arrested because you happened to be there. Or in a more politically current situation if you happened to belong to a mosque that had terrorist ties, but you were innocent and arrested for going there.

Those two things actually happen regularly in the state in which I live. Those who are innocent manage to prove that, and go on their own ways. Those who CLAIM innocence, but are honestly NOT so lily-white, may not be so lucky. *shrug*

As to forgiving.... I always follow Hadvar. I REALLY dislike the Stormcloaks. And besides.... it's a game. I'm actually a little disturbed at how much passion seems to be posted on this topic.

of course it is !!!


didnt you noticed ALL stromcloak jarls have ELVEN advisors !!!!

I was laughting to death when I went upstairs in the palace of kings and saw this udying aldmeri wizard, advisor to ulfric.

I m not certain, but the imperial jarls seems to only have humans advisors, with maybe a few exception
But like Stentor in Solitude (bretin) Firesomething in whiterun (human) and so on

The thalmor are directly visible in those places, but sort of put away, put asside

if you meet imperial soldiers on the roads, they say the empire is keeping the dominion at bay

I think ulfric is a puppet, and the undying is the puppet master

and I think an expansion is coming

what I see

human + dunmer versus aldmer + bosmer

not sure where argonians and khajits stand

*sigh*
These come up way too often. Both factions have been made intentionally grey and with both good and bad points. It's a normative issue, not an absolute one.

I favor the Empire because they appeal to me personally, and I make far more Lawful characters than I do Chaotic ones. No ones going to change my opinion by telling me I'm on the "wrong" side and it's the same for the folks that favor the Stormcloaks.

Heh. Yep. I'm Chaotic Good (IRL, not to mention in any game I play) with Lawful overtones and shadings. However, in this game I go as neutral as possible just because I don't really like either side. I'm in favor of putting Balgruuf in as Emperor, personally. If I get to off his bastard of a son, that is.

those who would sacrifice liberty for security deserve neither. the empire needs to die!!!

I made my character and Imperial, so therefore I sided with the Imperials. During the attack on Helgen, i'm sure Ulfric ran with his *beep* between his legs and probably assisted no one when the dragon attacked. He seems selfish like that. One would think he could have used his Thu'um to help the people at Helgen.

Since I've done almost every side quest, radiant quest, plus the main quest, I'm going to start a Nord and side with the StormCloaks this time around. Just experience the other side.

I remember talking to Vulwulf Snow-Shod in the Bee and Bard telling me that his daughter was killed by the Imperials. She was only in the war to help heal the soldiers, but the Imperials didn't care and gutted her like a fish. He is by far one of the most notable NPC's. I always die laughing when he calls Talen-Jei a stupid lizard.

"The ability to destroy a city is nothing compared to the power of the Thu'um."



I really wish people would stop citing "The Bear of Markarth" as a credible source.
Look at who authored it.

I tend to side Empire, just mainly because the Stormcloak Jarl's just seem to be more then a tad, (what's the word?), dim. Clueless, moronic, and all around less civil. With the exception of the one Empire puppet Jarl who I think has been eating paint, most of the empire siding ones seem at a minimum pleasant and mildly intelligent.

No kidding. The books in game aren't canon.... they're the ramblings of people who had their own axes to grind, etc.

Haha, should put a little Citation needed on those texts.

I find what Bethesda did making both sides murky to be a stroke of genius.

I say to favor the Stormcloaks because the Empire discriminates against generic women. Sure, the Empire has no problem hiring named women like Rikke, but for women who aren't important enough to be given a name, the Empire couldn't care less. The Stormcloaks allow all generic, nameless NPC's to fight for Skyrim, regardless of gender.

And I am being completely serious.