why stormcloaks are the wrong side : V - Skyrim

» Wed Dec 14, 2011 5:29 pm

The real enemy isn't the Empire, but the Thalmor.

It is. The problem is the Empire is helping the Thalmor. They're jailing and executing their own citizens over it.

When your allies turn against you to help your enemy, how do you support them?

» Thu Dec 15, 2011 12:24 am

I played through and supported the Stormcloaks which I later regretted.

It seems the White-Gold Concordat was designed by the Thalmor as a form of divide and conquor. They knew forcing in a ban on Worshipping Talos would cause unrest in Skyrim, thus forcing the Empire to divert military resources to quell the inevitable rebellion. The entire civil war seems to be a Machiavellian ruse to weaken the Empire.

Well that was General Tullius' opinion on his defeat anyway. I have to say I agree. The real enemy isn't the Empire, but the Thalmor.

I still haven't quite forgiven the Empire for trying to cut my head off though.

But they say they are sorry about the attempted decapitation so its all good.

» Thu Dec 15, 2011 8:30 am

Assuming he actually meant that. Ulfric is VERY good at saying what other people want to hear. It's difficult to tell if he's telling the truth because of that. But that's what makes the Stormcloak storyline so much more interesting, in my opinion.

Spoiler

Maven Black-Briar. At least the previous Jarl cared about the people of Riften and generally wanted to help them. Maven just sits on the throne and gloats about all the power she has now. Riften is screwed with her as the Jarl.

I think Riften will be fine. Before she was put into power, you had large conflicting forces in Riften: the government and the the thieves guild. At least this way, there is a unified government in Riften with a lack of violent crime.

» Thu Dec 15, 2011 1:02 am

The FIRST conversation with Ulfric at his shack:

-He is waging war against the empire because THEY SOLD OUT Skyrim to the Thalmor.

-He believes the empire, and the Nords, should've told the high elves exactly where they can shove their facist laws -- and because the Empire is all like "Please don't hurt us -- take the Talos worshippers instead, and when they are gone you can take the Daedra worshippers, and then when there's noone left to defend us, we will be long dead and the problem will be in the hands of our children so we won't give a damn that our children have no future"

-He killed the king to prove that the king couldn't even protect himself, and in Nord culture -- the inability to defend yourself suggests that you cannot defend your people.

-He honestly do not want war, but fights for the freedom of his people because the Empire sold them out.

...
-Furthermore, the towns siding with the Empire were mostly bribed into accepting the emperor, with old fashioned chests with gold, and ignore the Thalmor threath, or even let the Thalmor reside in their cities and take freaking prisoners.

...

Yes, he is suggested to be racist.
I've not heard him say anything racist, but his second in command should've taken an arrow to the knee.
Or face.
Or both.

» Thu Dec 15, 2011 6:51 am

"A united empire is better for everybody"

» Thu Dec 15, 2011 1:48 am

It is. The problem is the Empire is helping the Thalmor. They're jailing and executing their own citizens over it.

When your allies turn against you to help your enemy, how do you support them?

The Empire does no such thing. The Thalmor kill Talos worshipers, The Empire kill stormcloak rebel scum!
The Stormcloaks kill anyone who is not one of them. Ask the Dunmer, Ask Whiterun.
The Empire still worships Talos.

» Wed Dec 14, 2011 11:52 pm

It is. The problem is the Empire is helping the Thalmor. They're jailing and executing their own citizens over it.

When your allies turn against you to help your enemy, how do you support them?

I agree, it's a catch-22 situation. You concede to the Thalmor by siding with the Empire, or help the Thalmor by siding with the Stormcloaks. In my mind siding with the Empire and swallowing the terms of the treaties in the short-term is the best way to face the problem.

Ultimately the Thalmor can only be defeated by Unity, not the strife created by the Civil War.

» Thu Dec 15, 2011 8:48 am

with a lack of violent crime.

wat

Spoiler

Not only is the Thieve's Guild violent, but they and Maven are in bed with the Dark Brotherhood.

» Thu Dec 15, 2011 6:43 am

It is. The problem is the Empire is helping the Thalmor. They're jailing and executing their own citizens over it.

When your allies turn against you to help your enemy, how do you support them?

do you even roleplay in the forums or are you really thinking this way?

i could also ask: the stormcloaks are complete racists and want a nord-only skyrim, how do you support them?

» Wed Dec 14, 2011 4:56 pm

I think Riften will be fine. Before she was put into power, you had large conflicting forces in Riften: the government and the the thieves guild. At least this way, there is a unified government in Riften with a lack of violent crime.

Spoiler

Maven has innocent people permanently jailed or killed because they get in the way of her business or money-making. Now as the Jarl of Riften her methods are even more legitimatized. She only cares for herself and her own power, and it doesn't matter how many innocent citizens have to have their lives ruined so she can get it. As Jarl she is only more dangerous. Riften will be fine... as long as every single person in it devotes their lives to appeasing Maven and doesn't get in her way.

» Wed Dec 14, 2011 5:34 pm

Spoiler

Maven has innocent people permanently jailed or killed because they get in the way of her business or money-making. Now as the Jarl of Riften her methods are even more legitimatized. She only cares for herself and her own power, and it doesn't matter how many innocent citizens have to have their lives ruined so she can get it. As Jarl she is only more dangerous. Riften will be fine... as long as every single person in it devotes their lives to appeasing Maven and doesn't get in her way.

Windhelm and the Dunmer much?

» Wed Dec 14, 2011 7:10 pm

I sided with the empire because it is heavily implied that once the civil war is over they are going back to war with the thalmor.

» Wed Dec 14, 2011 8:03 pm

Unless I am meta-gaming the heck out of the game my character in-game would never know 90% of this stuff (the real facts).

Just stand in a Stormcloak camp and listen to them talk. Several of them have good personal reasons as to why they joined the Stormcloaks. That's all my in-game character needs to support them. To heck with the facts, the Empire kidnapped and killed my brother! I'll join anyone who fights them.

» Thu Dec 15, 2011 7:19 am

The way I see it, Stormcloaks represent the colonists, and the Empire represents England. Yes, it would be better FOR ENGLAND if Skyrim remained under its control, but the people of Skyrim should be allowed to concern themselves with the fate of the people of Skyrim, not have to concern themselves with carrying the dead weight of the Empire.

Oh, and by the way, that doesn't mean I think Stormcloaks are some infallible heroes. Just as the colonists murdered tax collectors who were simply doing their job, the Stormcloaks have done some shady stuff too like murdering those who pledged allegiance to the Empire prior to large scale hostilities breaking out. I just think they're more in the right, because they have the right to decide what is best for themselves - they shouldn't have it dictated to them.

Unless I am meta-gaming the heck out of the game my character in-game would never know 90% of this stuff (the real facts).

My character didn't join the war until after the dragon menace was dealt with. Heck, he probably wouldn't have joined the war at all, since fighting only weakens both the Empire and Skyrim when the biggest threat to the free people of the world is the Thalmor. You can read the literature in game and come to that conclusion. Mostly just the desire to actually do the content is what pushed him over the edge though.

» Wed Dec 14, 2011 4:29 pm

When it comes to right or wrong in this I think the most important is who can defend the land and keep it stable, which I have a discussion about http://www.gamesas.com/index.php?/topic/1308035-would-the-stormcloaks-manage-to-defend-skyrim/

Also

Spoiler

Even though Ulfric was tricked by the Thalmor they do not want him to win the war either implying that they believe a united Skyrim, with or without, the Empire is dangerous and that he refuses contact with the Thalmor. Said info is taken from the Thalmor Dossier you were so kind to mention.

» Thu Dec 15, 2011 8:50 am

do you even roleplay in the forums or are you really thinking this way?

The question makes no sense. It's not a perspective issue. It's a fact. The Jarl of Markarth will tell you all about how Ulfric and his men were jailed for worshiping Talos. And it's an easily verified fact that the Justiciars are going around murdering Imperial citizens.

Hammerfell had a similar problem. The Empire abandoned it to the Thalmor. Hammerfell fought back against the Thalmor, the Empire declared them enemies.

i could also ask: the stormcloaks are complete racists and want a nord-only skyrim, how do you support them?

At least they're not murdering people. Most of that seems to be said by people outside the Stormcloaks, so it's hard to know to what degree it's true. Reliable sources say he doesn't defend Dunmer that get attacked by bandits. But most of his officers don't give a flip what race anyone is. They'll even ask why you care about an independent Skyrim, you can tell them it's because Skyrim isn't just for Nords and they'll agree.

» Thu Dec 15, 2011 7:15 am

The only justification I could see for choosing the Empire is if you're playing an Imperial, Altmer, or Bosmer. Sure, the Stormcloaks aren't samaritans, but even you think they're bad they're clearly 'the lesser of two evils.' It's been said many times in the game before: The Empire is a shadow of its former self, it's nothing more than a puppet of the Aldmeri Dominion. Skyrim belongs to the Nords, are you Empire supporters saying that Skyrim shouldn't have the right to break away from the Empire when it bans the Nords from worshipping their own god?

» Wed Dec 14, 2011 7:33 pm

For one their whole meaning they stand behind makes no sense the empire was made by akatosh so therefor skyrim is originally the empirals home.

Akatosh created the whole planet Nirn, in which Tamriel is a part of. This does not stop the various cultures and races on the planet from fighting each other due to their differences. The imperials indeed can be traced back to the original Nord people, originating from Atmora, but over time (somewhere around 4000 years) they have evolved into a different race, with a different culture and values. Their shared ancestry no longer holds value, other than separating themselves from the races of Mer.

» Thu Dec 15, 2011 1:20 am

But they say they are sorry about the attempted decapitation so its all good.

Yep.

A dragon came out of NOWHERE and saved my life.

...

I'm siding with the DRAGONS next time.

...

» Wed Dec 14, 2011 7:42 pm

Guys Cant We Just respect are views

Im Very Pro-Imperial But that dosent mean We have to fight about it! Cant we have a civilizied Debate....

» Wed Dec 14, 2011 6:06 pm

There is no wrong or right side. Stopped reading at "a ledger about ulfric stating that he is working with the thalmar" because it proves you don't seem to understand anything.

This.

» Wed Dec 14, 2011 9:19 pm

Spoiler

When I was reading the info about the forsworn people, and how they were the inhabitants of Markath and the surrounding areas, then it all reminds me of the real and present history of right here in USA regarding the Native Americans..and then you got 2 powers competing for something , that doesn't belong to them, in this point of view. But then add to the mix, that Markath and so all the Dwemer and Aleyid ruins across Tamriel built by ancient elves, and the closest descendants are the high elves, represented as the Thalmer here, while the dwemer has completely disappeared.

So who has the right to the land?

Is it have to do with who owned it through history or who owns it now or is it up in the air. I say, those own it who live on it now, and going racial will bring suffering to someone, so if you really think of it, and go by the standards of Cyrodill, then you can note, that the imperials keeping that "democratic" way of treating everyone equally, regardless of race, while if you look at Windhelm ran by Ulfric, the dark elves are treated like sh1t, because of their race. Meanwhile, the imperial soldiers trying to chop your head off at the beginning is sure an emotional judgement and not based on fairness, and Skryim does simulate the real world quite well in this regard. The problem is not the ideology when it comes to the empire, the problem is with the people running it, meanwhile the stormcloaks are the wrong ideology with an extremist leader, so the scale tips toward the empire being more right than the stormcloaks.

» Wed Dec 14, 2011 6:47 pm

The way I see it, Stormcloaks represent the colonists, and the Empire represents England. Yes, it would be better FOR ENGLAND if Skyrim remained under its control, but the people of Skyrim should be allowed to concern themselves with the fate of the people of Skyrim, not have to concern themselves with carrying the dead weight of the Empire.

Oh, and by the way, that doesn't mean I think Stormcloaks are some infallible heroes. Just as the colonists murdered tax collectors who were simply doing their job, the Stormcloaks have done some shady stuff too like murdering those who pledged allegiance to the Empire prior to large scale hostilities breaking out. I just think they're more in the right, because they have the right to decide what is best for themselves - they shouldn't have it dictated to them.

My character didn't join the war until after the dragon menace was dealt with. Heck, he probably wouldn't have joined the war at all, since fighting only weakens both the Empire and Skyrim when the biggest threat to the free people of the world is the Thalmor. You can read the literature in game and come to that conclusion. Mostly just the desire to actually do the content is what pushed him over the edge though.

skyrim was inhabited before the empire was made so calling them the colonist makes no sense, the empire branched off from the nords of skyrim so in a way skyrim is england and empire is the colonist.

» Wed Dec 14, 2011 11:49 pm

The question makes no sense. It's not a perspective issue. It's a fact. The Jarl of Markarth will tell you all about how Ulfric and his men were jailed for worshiping Talos. And it's an easily verified fact that the Justiciars are going around murdering Imperial citizens.

Hammerfell had a similar problem. The Empire abandoned it to the Thalmor. The Hammerfell fought back, the Empire declared them enemies.

At least they're not murdering people. Most of that seems to be said by people outside the Stormcloaks, so it's hard to know to what degree it's true. Reliable sources say he doesn't defend Dunmer that get attacked by bandits. But most of his officers don't give a flip what race anyone is. They'll even ask why you care about an independent Skyrim, you can tell them it's because Skyrim isn't just for Nords and they'll agree.

Thalmor Justicars.

The Empire was the main reason Hammerfell drove them out. Thanks to the Heoric efforts of the Legions at the battle of the Red ring.

Stormcloaks killed everyone in the village of Karthwasten. Everyone. Who in the stormcloaks would Disagree with their Leader? Of course its said by people outside the Stormcloaks, but in Windhelm.

» Wed Dec 14, 2011 4:45 pm

Spoiler

Maven has innocent people permanently jailed or killed because they get in the way of her business or money-making. Now as the Jarl of Riften her methods are even more legitimatized. She only cares for herself and her own power, and it doesn't matter how many innocent citizens have to have their lives ruined so she can get it. As Jarl she is only more dangerous. Riften will be fine... as long as every single person in it devotes their lives to appeasing Maven and doesn't get in her way.

You could always just kill her.

Ultimately though, it's a lose/lose situation. They designed the civil war so that you could not win even if you defeated your opponent. I respect that, but at the same time I feel they should have wrapped the Thalmor story line up so that the next Elder Scrolls game could take place in Akivari.