Thanks have a :cookie: , never thought of talking to the snot nose

bigcrazewolf

Am I the only one to notice how ridiculously fast the Courier works the action of the "Cowboy" guns, its faster than the semi-auto guns! At least the Lincolns repeater in Fallout 3 should be a better example of how fast the average person could work the action, it seems like the NV action is based off the Rifleman.

No your not the only one, but it takes a damn long time to re-load though.

bigcrazewolf

Not really, not when you can do partial reloads, also if you have 2 ammo types, you cam just double tap the change ammo type hotkey and it will play the finishing reload animation at full ammo.

Id say the problem is reload speed... with the agiility bonus and rapid reload the balance of the guns gets realy messed up. Maybe rapid reload should be tweaked to 10% and the bonus from agility should be looked at.. it REALY changes reload speed alot... I mean intel only gives a max bonus of 4.5 out of a possible 17 skill points but agility speeds up reloads by something like 90% combined with rapid reload...

Well they are wrong.

Since you can duck behind cover and with decent sneak you would lower the alert status on AI, it isn't detrimental at all.

I think Cowboy guns should have bonus limb cripple multiplier for the larger bullet.

I understand you have stated you don't want to make all rounds behave differently and thus make a clean cut on more "caliber=more damage", however it sort of fall apart with Handloaded rounds.

As for 12.7mm SMG being powerful....it isn't. Against Centurion and NCR Heavy Trooper/Veteran Ranger it only does about 12 damage per shot, take in account for critical you still need about 1.5 clips to kill one; while with Trail Carbine and SWC rounds (no Cowboy) would drop one with 3~4 rounds....which is half the clip. And the 12.7mm SMG is actually losing in "time for each kill" since it needs to reload against each target and Trail Carbine only need to do so every second enemy.

And the spread for Cowboy weapon is way too low.

So here is my suggestion to improve some gun (as I personally believe they are largely fine):
Increase spread of all Cowboy Rifles (except for La Longue Carabine) 10 times.
Decrease Cowboy Rifle rate of fire to 1.5 (currently 1.8) per second without modifiers.
Rework Cowboy to increase 15% damage and 25% reload speed.
Increase clip of 12.7mm SMG to 24 (so with the above example the 12.7mm SMG and Trail Carbine would kill a Hoover Dam enemy in a closer time frame).
Increase damage of 5mm weapons 25%.
Decrease AMR's bolt-operation time equal to reload with 10 agility (as character with Rapid Reload should be better off reloading).
Increase damage of Sniper Rifle and Gobi Sniper Rifle to 50 (if just feels wrong that a post-war rig-rug rifle does more damage than a pre-war sniper rifle).
Add -3DT to 5mm, 5,56mm and .308 Standard; Improve AP to -20DT;bring Hollow point in line with JHP.
Add -10DT to .50.

F3's Lincoln Repeater fired about the same speed as the bolt-action Hunting Rifle. Not that realism is necessarily "the goal", but lever-action rifles firing short handgun cartridges can cycle extremely fast.


Yes, Centurions, Heavy Troopers, and Veteran Rangers do have enough DT to make the 12.7mm SMG less effective. Even in the endgame, those troops are less common than the rank-and-file Legionaries, Troopers, and Rangers who have significantly worse armor.

Yes, Centurions, Heavy Troopers, and Veteran Rangers are a extreme examples. However, rank and file troops can be "tear to shreds" by low end weapon as well; while 12.7mm SMG should be the SMG line of Brush Gun, it have trouble keeping up with Trail Carbine.

Clip of 15 also means 12.7mm SMG needs to reload every 2 seconds, which take about 1 second to reload with "pro" Gun build.

Yes, lever action can operate rather fast with pistol rounds, but its also harder to maintain accuracy.

Nice, looking forward to further balance! I love automatics, but I really don't see much reason to carry them around when I have the brush gun, while it does not have the highest DPS at close range, it will usually give one shot kills and the low AP cost will guarantee many, many headshots at 95% in VATS. I think the main problem with the brush gun (with cowboy) is that there is just no reason to carry anything else for close or medium range combat, only at extreme long range do you need a sniper rifle or the AMR.

BTW, love what you've done to the "ballistics" (iron sights, projectile speeds etc) in F:NV, it really is a marked improvement from FO3.

You are not. There's even a mod for it on the nexus.


That maybe so, but with Trigger Discipline I still fired the cowboy repeater really quick.
I have to agree with several other people that the longer reload-time, while a bother, isn't really much of a detractor from the rest of it's advantages.

I understand that it has high DPS, but the small clip and insane spread make it almost useless. And I suppose that the reason for not doing progressive spread makes sense, but I for one would rather have progressive spread and less guns. And btw, thanks for taking time to actually answer on this thread, a lot of devs would just ignore it.

Out of curiosity what kind of numbers did you give shotguns? It should be pointed out that a 12 gauge shotgun is arguably the most effective one-shot manstopper on the face of the planet, at least without body armor, so your numbers may actually be correct...

^^ Not sure about the 12 gauge shotgun. For big game hunting, even a deer can run on for a couple of hundred yards after being shot. Unless you are talking point blank range. I would rank 45-70 over that for stoping power. Or a 50 cal.

In 2 weeks I'm headed north for the Annual Southeast Michigan Shootapalooza where I intend to time accurate effective fire rates with a myriad of bolt, single and double action, semi-auto, lever and break-action weapons. Or that is my plan. Implementing them will be more difficult since the fire rate is not a fixed number that effects each weapon the same, but is reliant on the firing animation. I'm shooting with some pretty experienced shooters, and will try to get *real* aimed shot effective rates. Anybody can bump fire a weapon for insane rates, but you can't hit crap with it. I'm going to go on the assumption that max fire rates in the game are "aimed shot" rates, since I can think of no way to penalize accuracy for faster than effective fire rates.

Question for Josh, if he's still here: does the gravity number effect accuracy at all? In or out of VATS? Rather than modeling the spread worse on a pistol round to simulate the poor performance at longer range, would changing the projectile's gravity effect this better? Also, do the range numbers on projectiles effect accuacy at longer ranges?

-Gunny putting the finishing touches on all the special targets to simulate all the challenges from the History Channel's "Top Shot" program. This year's Shootapalooza is going to be a blast.

First thing I did was change the number of projectiles. http://www.remington.com/products/ammunition/shotshells/buckshot/express-buckshot.aspx.

Each .33" 12ga 00 pellet has 210 ft-lb of muzzle energy and a TKO of 3.
Each .25" 20ga #3 pellet has 73.5 ft-lb of muzzle energy and a TKO of ~0.

Using my proprietary SCIENTIFIC! formula (patent pending :celebration: ), I have each 12ga pellet at 12.7 DAM and each 20ga pellet at 8.3 DAM. (disclaimer: I'm pretty sure I borked something in the data entry on one or the other, as the 20ga is too close to the 12ga. I haven't had time to recheck the formulae, which are about the length of War and Peace. I'll get to it)

The 12ga DAM (max skill, all pellets hit) with a 30" barrrel is pretty good at 114, but the 20 ga is too high at 149. Like I said, I think I fat fingered a key somewhere. Now for each weapon, I take barrel length and other factors into account for the exact DAM each weapon has. The weapons perform pretty good, modeled with appropriate spread numbers. You don't do a lot of damage at long ranges, as you get less pellets to hit, but up close, they destroy. The 20ga a little too much. Guess I know what I'm doing tonight.

-Gunny out.

Were those particular testers on the console? Not long ago I saw a part of let's play for Dead Money to see what it looked like and the guy spent five minutes trying to pick up chips out of a fountain. The game byro engine doesn't seem to allow the same precision as others for the controller since this guy is one of the CoD youtube stars meaning he isn't bad with sticks by any means. Being a pubstar for Counter Strike myself (which if you played will probably ruin any shooter you touch as your reflexes and accuracy skyrocket) I hardly ever miss aside from spread from the auto weapons and combined with the way encounters are handled I'll have to cosign with reloading not being an issue. You could make the reload time last a full minute and it probably wouldn't effect 90+% of the battles I fought.

Instead of nerfing more guns I'd prefer if the others were simply uplifted to be more competitive with their tier.

And looking forward to how that mod works out. :liplick:

Outside of VATS, gravity should affect projectiles marked as not "hit scan". In VATS, all projectiles should be affected by gravity. WARNING: setting projectiles as non-hit scan can potentially cause performance problems. In the case of a shotgun, you're generating a ton of physics objects with each shot. Throw a bunch of guys with Miniguns or Assault Carbines into the mix and you're generating dozens and dozens of fast-moving physics objects on every frame. I did mess around with simulating drop with the various .22 LR, .357 Mag., .44 Mag., and .45-70 Gov't projectiles but it was pretty fussy.

I thought that maybe that would be the case. Other than adjusting spread, which is a less than ideal way to do it, is there any other way to model range performance? Hard limits, maybe? Bear with me, please. I'm really new to this stuff.

-Gunny out.

To me, the Assault Carbine should have a much higher ROF and better single shot accuracy. With a higher ROF, you can hit someone with a large amount of DPS, though with a small magazine in comparison to the minigun, so you can only really fire bursts at a few people at most.

The "Cowboy Guns" are fine as far as damage goes to me, as is the ROF (I've owned a couple of lever-actions), but the reload speed is absurdly fast.

The Service Rifle could do with the same ROF as the Marksman Carbine.

Some random musings.

You can set hard limits on a projectile's range, but that will just cause it to stop existing once it hits that distance.

Min spread gets REALLY fiddly when you start getting into rifle ranges/FoVs. You can do things like raise the lever-guns' min spread but if you really do multiply it by ten, they will be almost useless as rifles. It feels "off" because you have a low FoV and sights, but miss with half of all your shots at moderate ranges. Effectively, any relatively slow RoF/low FoV weapon with a mind spread over 0.1 will start to feel pretty crummy. With a min spread in the 0.05 to 0.09 range, you can still be pretty effective at taking body shots, but reliably performing head shots usually isn't possible unless the target is at moderate range. Similarly, VATS targeting gets a lot worse unless the target is significantly closer than they would be for (for example) the Sniper Rifle.

This may be a really bizarre idea, but.... Well, Kikaimegami and I built the "Arcane Archery" mod for Oblivion. In it, you could deliver magical attacks with a bow, which varied with your magical skills. The arrow itself did not deliver the magical attack it only served to deliver a simple script that checked for targets hit and then computed the damage it should inflict. Could you do something similar in F:NV to accurately simulate effects of range on bullet speed/delivered energy?

Basically, on the projectile: script run on hit
- Did I hit an actor? (not terrain, clutter) If yes, continue
- What is the basic damage I should inflict at the muzzle?
- What is the distance between what I hit and the player?
- muzzle energy * distance * fancy math
- Pass delivered energy to DT/DR simulation for handling

:confused:

Obviously this would cost a lot more CPU than static damage, but if the basic functionality still exists in the script engine, it should give you the accurate results you are looking for as far as differentiating various projectiles...

Gunny, pull the numbers you have gathered for bullet drop and show Josh.

Bah.. made a thread asking the same question (among others) and it peetered out of existence.... If nothing else can be done to the Assault Carbine, just give it back it's silencer mod. There's no use to it now (when I say no use, I really mean no use) at least having an alternative to the wonky looking American 180 (Silenced .22 SMG) would be nice.

You have the awesome clip of 15 12.7mm SMG!