All 5mm are crap for their supposed tier. Now we get this out of the way, you would see how awesome Assault Carbine really is.

Sway hardly matters for a spread of 1.5, you can use it as soon as you buy it no matter what your Gun skill of is.

Spread 1.5's cone is way smaller than SMG's 3 or 4.

It is considerably more durable than SMGs (400 instead of 250).

And 5mm is lighter than 9mm in hardcoe; and you can certainly buy more 5mm than 9mm.

Anyone else impressed with just how many replies this one thread has got?

The answers simple.

The assault rifle is relatively poo because the damage proportions of all the guns in the game are out in some way.

Some too powerful, others far too weak. Those are the only main classes I can see apart from guns, energy and explosive...

Use it, or don't.
And simple remedies for the problem are 1. put the difficulty on very easy 2. use the LMG or anti material rifle instead 3. Have Boone as a companion...

The thing that annoys me (although i'm not a huge fan anyway, I'm not biased) is just how pathetic all shotguns seem to be despite their stats.
Anyone remember just how awesome the combat shotgun was in FO3? Ridiculously....

I got some "love you long time" with the 20ga shotguns last night after I fixed my error on their damage. The Single Shotgun is now BY FAR my favorite early game weapon, surplanting the Varmint rifle (which got a reasonable boost in damage also). Even though per pellet it does less than 5 points DAM, modeling it with 18 pellets like 20ga #3 buck has IRL makes it beastly if you got the cajones to let your target get close enough to ensure all pellets hit. It really feels like a shotgun you'd use to hunt with now, as I took out all the geckos, bloat flies and coyotes between Goodsprings and Primm with dispatch. It was also my "Oh [censored]!" go to in the Bison Steve when that piddly little .22 didn't work well enough. Caravan is just a bit under the single, but havin' two chambered really helps. Can't wait to get a lever-action. I'll have to wait a bit to see how the 12ga ones work out, but they now shoot the correct 9 pellets instead of 7. Plus slugs do a real number on moderate DT, since the per shot damage is higher then vanilla and I adjusted the spread reduction from x.35 to x.165 like my numbers suggest. I would feel confident hunting medium game with the Single Shotgun now. Maybe I'll have to see how it does on bighorners today.

-Gunny out.

Why have you got the Caravan Shotgun doing less damage than the Single?

Because the caravan has two shots, is an instant reload with a half way decent build.
Has a shorter muzzle, requires less strength.. would be my guess, for the same damage as a single it'll out class most.

Also Gunny, could I be rude enough to nick some of your work that you've already posted, and jury rig it into what I'm doing?
If you say no it's ok, but I have no clue as to real weapons only in game ones.
I've already got 60%+ of npc's using different ammos and weapons, if I can use your figures it'll help.

Maybe because of the huge scatter cone under full auto, the peashooter 5mm ammo, or the fact that you can't mod it like Lilly's Silenced Carbine?

Longer barrel = higher velocity. Every weapon has it's (guestimate) barrel length factored in as a multiplier. All base ammo damage was done at 24" barrels for rifles and 5" barrrels for pistols. Factor barrel length accordingly. Now if someone could please point me to a ballistics calculator (free online) where I can change barrel lenght, I can tune this even better. I've been too lazy to look.


Use what you will. Anyone with a GECK can do what I've done if they have the numbers. I'd be happy to post the DAM and spread numbers as they are now, but be advised, I'm still tweaking. The error I had with the shotgun damage actually effected all the very low dam projectiles, ie: BB, .22, shot and to an extent even 9mm. Unfortunatly, fixing it meant slightly lower numbers for all the above projectiles. One thing I liked with the higher damage on the lower tier weapons was that the enemies, who seem to use lower tier weapons quite a bit, were much tougher, and the challenge was refreshing. It was a little overpowered on some small creatures, but since the fix, I don't get that "Crap! here comes a powder ganger with a shotgun!" feeling anymore. I'm seriously considering raising the lowest tier back up.

-Gunny out.

Not a simple question at all. To really understand how barrel length affects muzzle velocity you need to know, at a minimum, the powder type and grain size and the mass of the bullet....I imagine rifling type (flat/polygonal) and case volume have an effect as well. The variables, man, think of the variables! :chaos:

Thanks Gunny that would help if you really don't mind posting your numbers, I have no worries about too much damage.
As as you say anyone can tweak it how they like, and I really have no dislike about ott damage here's what I have so far with basic damage..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vL8Vh0XOXNg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F_fJXQLuAOE

Its a shot shell of the same type fired from two different length barrels. There are no other variables. Same choke, same gauge, same ammo. More barrel = more boom, unless the barrel is so long that the pressures drop and start to equalize.

@Madoc - Do you want the numbers I have now, or the numbers where the lower tier weapons are higher DAM? I'll post 'em up tomorrow in my old damage thread.

-Gunny out.

so, you're comparing a headshot from a sniper against shots into the chest from other weapons(and yes, we all know how weak explosive weapons are)?
i think that alone tells how flawed your arguments are...
nerfing JUST the sniper rifle was definitely a horrible decision(apart from nerfing the alien blaster, making the ww trait now completely useless). it went down from overpowered to downright mediocre, especially compared to other bullet type weapons.
you now have to rely on sneak criticals, a circumstance especially bad for those who are loving the gobi - like me -, which, as we all know can't be equipped with a suppressor.
i keep playing new vegas pre patch, just for that silly crippling, not nerfing of the sniper rifle, just to please some forum whiners who have never been using it anyway.
i can live with the reduced damage, and dumbing down the JSPs a bit is something i could be perfectly fine with, but it should have retained at least a crit multiplier of x3 to still allow it becoming an adequate tool for a high level sniper build.
it's a PRECISION tool, and i think the devs would have a hard time explaining why a rifle like the ratslayer still has crit multiplier, while the .308 version don't have one anymore.

The problem is that you have an unknown quantity you're trying to build off of. You have a shotgun that delivers speed x, and then you put the same round into a shorter tube with the same diameter and shape, and want to know how much less speed you get out of it. Except that without the formula to describe x in the first place, you can't meaningfully change it. You're dealing with a black box number with no user serviceable parts inside. All you can do is guess, which the internet is full of (a quick google shows people who believe the difference is anywhere between 5 and 50 feet per second, per inch of barrel, for various types of firearms; except basic reasoning tells us that barrel length vs. muzzle velocity is a non-linear function, so....)

Just trying to point out the complexity of the question you're trying to get an answer to. I've never seen or heard of a program that can accurately compute muzzle velocity based purely on variables including barrel lengths. People just use chronographs if they want a precise answer.



I don't see the problem here. The sniper rifle is a precision tool that lets you deliver guaranteed sneak crits from extreme ranges. Adding a suppressor and boosting the crit multiplier just encourages using it as an all purpose assault weapon. Different tools for different jobs!

But even now as a sneak weapon it is quite bad because it either overkill (ala smaller caliber would get the job done) or can't get the job done (but the next step is 15lbs of dead weight before much heavier bullet).

I think the Gobi should be able to take a few abuse when things get hairy and with normal one you would be wrecking your gun if you done switch; we can see that in the durability and rate of fire difference. High crit multiplier simply does belong to either weapon.

Again, I think Sniper Rifle and Gobi is over nerfed because it feels wrong when compare to Hunting Rifle and Trail Carbine; 5.56mm and .357 would be "correct" with out SWC or Cowboy (although I think a minor DT bypass to HV rounds and extra .25 limb damage to magnums would be ideal).

this is your opinion. i don't like running around with like 12 different weapons all the time.
and i find it being completely unsatisfying having a character build focussed around a high crit ability, when suddenly my main tool almost stops delivering critical hits apart from that first sneak critical which every type of character build gets anyway.
this decision rendered my whole character useless. where's the point in investing in perks and traits which raise your critical hit chance, when there're almost no weapons anymore to make use of it?
instead, now the cowboy+shotgun surgeon route is clearly vastly superior

Thanks I look forward to reading them.
Whichever is easy for you Gunny, if you still have the higher ones those would be great.

Amazing that people are still whining about the sniper rifle.

Keep up the good work Gunny! I especially appreciate the shotgun mods to make them more realistic.

Not sure how 600 pts of damage for a single shot is weak. That is enough to kill anything.

But by real gripe is with the sneak attack, not really the Sniper Rifle. All the damage multiples, so the damage becomes over the top.

Because it is 600 before any DT or DR? When you take them into account the number drop straight back to 300~500 range.

Yet against most things Varmint Rifle would do just fine.

Again, the number It only looks bad when you put Hunting Rifle++ and Trail Carbine next to it.

Actually DT might be 40 at best and enemies with DR aren't very common.

That said I agree. It should do more than a hunting rifle. Adding 10 to damage combined with a nerf of cowboy rifles long range functionality would put things back how they should.

you're saying it yourself, it's the sneak attack bonus, not the sniper rifle.
and i think i've made myself clear: i've built my character to be a proficient sniper, this means my decisions in terms of perks, traits and SPECIAL were made to have a high base critical hit value.
and before the patch, that worked out pretty well. i evolved from ratslayer to gobi, and thanks to my character design decisions that earned me a crit chance of 90%, WITHOUT having to resort to sneak attacks!
now some 'clever' person at obisidian decided to "balance things out", and just lowered my critical hit chance from 90 to 18%, making my whole character design inefficient.
sorry, but that just stinks!
i'm not complaining about a general re-balancing of the sniper rifle. i'm ok with the reduction of the overall damage as it is . i also think the 1.5x DAM for JSPs is way too much, 1.2 or 1.25 should be more appropriate.
but taking away the critical multiplier is short-sighted, to say it in a very diplomatic manner.
THAT singlehandedly made the whole sniperpath pointless. because, as we all know, sneak criticals can be achieved with any type of character. going for a maximum DAM output is now clearly the only viable solution in combat issues.
in case of the sniper rifle, i would have done it the following way. reduce the base DAM even a bit more to 30 or 35 or so. set the crit DAM bonus to about 50, and the crit multiplier to x3 or x3.5.
that way, the sniper rifle would be a very powerful tool in the hands of those who were willing to invest into the right abilites, without being the infamous all-purpose combat rifle for everyone, it admittedly could be abused to before the patch.
my plea to the developers for future patches is: please, please spend some thought on your decisions and the possible consequences. it's clear you have not in that particular case here.

Well, I play sniper stealth character myself and I have no problems. I'm assuming that as sniper you probably have same perks as myself. Better crits, finesse, silent running, the professional.

I don't use the gobi, I use modded sniper rifle. Howeverr, I view ultimate long range sniping weapon as gauss rifle and the unique varient. I rotate between gauss and sniper rifle. It isn't hard to master the skills required to use both.

What however, iis artarded, is if say you want to use vats when using a long ranged scoped weapon, it is impossiible to hit. Scoped long ranged weapons should have a bonus to hit in vats at higher range, and penalty when they close enough to hit with a combat knife. Thus, I don't rreally use vats unless in close range when most time to hit is 95, thus making commando, sniper, gunslinger absolutely pointless perks. This is something I was hoping they would have changed. I made suggestion in general forum to combine both gunslinger and commando into one perk, call it say marksman. Perhaps rename sniper to head shots, and make a new perk sniper that gives bonus to crit chance/damage or kwep sniper same and create a perk called one shot, one kill that gives the bonus dam/crit.

However, I have had zero problems sniping. Take down deathclaw camp at level 16 and I could of done it way earlier, but I think that doing it when I did is only way to get the bonus chems.

Now, as far as assault carbine. This is not a battle rifle, and the troops in afghanistan are not fighting guys in combat armor or super mutants. I consider the assault carbine as a glorified smg. You are also comparing it to a unique. Well, compare the all american to the vance smg then. When I have decided to use the gun, I haven't had any issues. I'm thinking you are somewhat mistaking it as a battle rifle, which it is not. Now, why they didn't really include a battle rifle iin the game kinda boggles me and I was really hoping for G3, but oh well. The LMG is as close you will get to a battle rifle, even though it is really a light support weapon.

If you want to talk about something that makes no sense, it is the str 7 req for 12mm pistol. Durp.

Btw, I own a lever action rifle, and it wasn't manufactured in 1800. If world ends, vast majority of weapons are going to be bolt action, semi auto rifles, shotguns, and handguns. I liked the weapons, but I don't understand why still no semi auto hunting rifle, as the good old USA sure has a lot of them. I will admit theyy kinda went overboard with all the lever action stuff though.

let me tell you something:
finesse is not needed for your playstyle, it doesn't help you at all. pick something different, if you are relying on sneak kills.
with a multiplier of only x1, finesse just raises your crit chance by a lousy 5%. finesse and built to destroy are pretty much worthless perk/traits now, for somebody who's relying on a sniper rifle
and no, while i do have my share of sneak kills, i'm NOT playing as a stealth sniper, as my choice for the gobi already implies, and therefore the effects of the "re-balancing" became very evident to me.
as long as you rely on sneak kills, then yes, your rifle is still pretty deadly, as anything is, down to the baseball bat.
that has its roots in the broken sneak attack system, where every attack from the "hidden" mode is an automatical crit, and your char skills and weapon stats aren't taken into the equation (apart from the DAM infleuncing weapon skill)


to add something to the assault carbine discussion:
it works pretty well on short ranges, and thanks to the AP ammo an almost every enemy.
it just has an enourmous amount of spray, that makes it look worse than it actually is

No one have problem sniping, we just think a high grade military sniper refile should be more lethal than a commercial hunting bolt-action rifle.

Why?

Because it's a RPG and most weapons come tiered (9mm-12mm pistol).