This would be the only logical reason, as most military sniper rifles are just accurized versions of very good commercial hinting rifles. Every M40 started as a Remington 700 short-action. Every M24 started as a Remington 700 long-action. They're even making the XM2010 from the same action. A good commercial rifle, with the proper break-in, some accurizing and the ammo it likes best can put up the kind of accuracy you see in military sniper rifles. Hell, they even have access to better/more kinds of ammo than the military does to find the one that works best.

If they wanted to "tier" the rifles in a way that made sense, then they should have made the military sniper and the commercial hunter in different calibers. They could have modeled the commercial rifle in a less lethal/accurate round so that the game stats made some sense. Having two weapons chambered in the same cartridge with the seme barrel lengths makes this tougher to do as you get into piddling things that only effect the muzzle energy in a small way. I'd buy better accuracy easier, but you'd have to make sure you told me the hunting rifle was a cheap off the shelf job, some some deer hunting gun nut's pride and joy.

-Gunny out.

But Gunny, what about better galvanization, heavier barrel and better rifling etc?

I think that the Assualt Carbine is pretty good...its better than the service rifle. Also they should have a mod that increases its damage or reduces its spread.

Well, while .46ACP is tinkering he could rechamber the Sniper Rifle to .338 Lapua. More powerful, and much rarer. Because otherwise there is no reason that the sniper rifle should be more powerful than the hunting rifle. Two rifles shooting the same cartridge from the same barrel length will deliver the same effect on the target, the only difference is that the sniper's rifle has been tweaked and tuned to deliver maximum accuracy for extreme distance shooting.

Also I don't really have any sympathy for people that are crit-fiends and were abusing the sniper rifle as a CQB weapon. I don't believe any other guns have a critical hit multiplier over 1.5, and most are 1.0. The multiplier of 5 was a remnant from Fallout 3 that they overlooked. The bug was fixed. Energy weapons are the critical hit engines in F:NV, but pay for this by being more limited in other ways. Further, a sniper is a person who defeats targets from stealth: the entire concept of a sniper is somebody who is sneaky. And attacking while hidden grants an automatic crit, which is ridiculously powerful in this game. The same character who can drop almost anything with one shot from arbitrary distances should not also be a powerful short range fighter who scores critical hits 80% of the time in close combat. Having such a weapon makes actual short range weapons like shotguns and SMGs rather pathetic by comparison, instead of vastly more powerful in their specified arena. And finally: the Gobi Campaign Rifle like many of the game's other uniques, is only marginally or arguably better than the basic version. Its inability to take a suppressor is the price you pay for being able to get the thing long before you should have a sniper rifle at all, as well as its other features like improved durability. It should not be seen as the gold standard of awesome that must improve on the basic weapon in every way.

:flamethrower:

I think if anything, it should be changed to .300 Win Mag, .338 Lapua would net at least 15 more damage, whereas .300 Win Mag would be about a 10 damage increase.

Maybe I'm off in those numbers though (despite the fact that they'd both get the job done).

Have a greater effect on accuracy than energy. And complex modeling like the dractic yaw inducing fracture at the canolure of the 5.56mm at high impact velocities is just to far outside of the capabilities of this game. "Reasonable realism" should be the goal, not "exacting realism". Momaw's suggestion of .338 would be a step in the right direction. It alleviates the need to differentiate two weapons that fire the same round and actually is happening in real life. The new XM2010, since it uses the long action, will take .300 Win Mag, and that's what they'll be chambered in. Modders, take note: Change the Sniper to .300 Win Mag and all our problems are solved. If I get the chance, I'll cook the numbers quickly.

Oh, btw, I think I finally found a decent ballistics numbers on barrel length, at least for common pistol rounds at Ballisticsbytheinch.com
-gunny out.

Finesse is uber for me. I don't just sneak/kill. But I generally begin my kills with a sneak kill, then keep firing. If enemies close the gap, I switch weapons. So, I go for crits, in general, and I get a lot of them. And there is bonus of sniper rifle over hunting rifle, at least it feels different to me, more accurate, I dunno. But I really don't have any problems with weapons...except for the mind boggling str 7 for 12.7 mm pistol, and the ommition of a pure battle rifle.

Btw, people saying how easy to get sniper rifle etc.. it easy to get a lot of stuff. Two words, Van Graff.

you know what? one's not getting an 18% base crit value out of nothing, i had to make sacrifices for that. and other than that, i never denied, that it indeed was overpowered before.
and if you would have read my postings, you'd stumbled over my suggestions, on how to retain its characteristics for people who specialized on sniping without leaving it a uber-cqc weapon for everyone
and sure you can explain to me why that is a no-no, while a person on the cowboy/shotgun surgeon route with a dinner bell in his hands deserves more sympathy., or what do you think of all these unarmed people running around with pushy and using the ranger takedown. how cheap is that?





you're wrong. ratslayer x5, that gun x2.5, lucky x2.5 to name a few, leaving EW completely aside
i'm sure you'll be able to explain, why a revolver can have such a mulitplier, while a high precision rifle can't...
and you know, it feels pretty silly, when you're progressing from your early/midgame weapon (ratslayer), which delivered the desired results to your supposed endgame weapon, and then it suddenly stops.
that is not progressing, its regressing.



it is not the cover that kills the people, it's accurate aiming, and a powerful weapon.



exactly, and that has to go, not the crit multiplier for the sniper as a whole.




so, then nobody should be powerful at short ranges, because the sneak critical works for everyone, always, whether you have 1% base crit chance or 18%...



i've made suggestions how to balance the sniper, about 30 base damage, 50 crit damage, tone down jsp ammo, set the crit multiplier to about x3. that way it won't be a uber weapon for everyone
other than that you obviously never tried the dinner bell/riot shot gun in conjunction with cowboy/shotgun surgeon and slugs/magnum shots.
same can be said for the brush gun or ranger sequoia w/ cowboy, or all of the melee/unarmed stuff. there are loads of weapons which do ridiculous amounts of damage.
what i want, is a justification for the SPECIAL/perk/trait choices i've made. the way it works after the patch, there are just way better ways to distribute my SPECIAL points, than focussing on luck, taking built to destroy, etc.
for that reason i stick with pre-patch version, at least until i decide to make completely new character.



i tell you something: it isn't better at all. in fact it's worse than the regular version, as it can't be silenced, and does slightly less damage.
durability isn't an issue in a game, where you can make dozens of repair kits. the only upside, it uses less AP in VATS, but since VATS is totally useless over longer distances...
the reason why i've been using it are the looks and the sound, simple as that.
by the way, if you're not able to get a regular sniper rifle, before your lockpick skill gets anywhere into the regions which allow you to pick a 'very hard' lock, you're doing it wrong, very wrong.

depends what you mean by "get a lot of them". before that patch my quota was 9/10, after the patch 1/6. some would consider 1/6 as "a lot", if you've spent the majority of your gaming time with quotas above 70% it's not that much anymore.
it definitely gives you the feeling, your character's abilites have gotten worse during the progression, and that is not fun at all.



the penalties for not meeting STR requirements are pretty minimal, though. also, there are a million ways to boost your strength.
having some bighorner or brahmin steaks in your inventory is a cheap workaround, just as an example.
not sure what you mean by pure battle rifle, but there are the assault carbine, the marksman(all american), the brush gun, or this machine. all these rifles are well working mid range weapons

Yeah, Gobi's only better than stock sniper rifle, unlike other uniques that trade one or none mod for performance above fully modded.

Gunny: bullet fly straighter = more energy efficiency. 50 damage is barely 11% increase in damage, by which I think is a reasonable.

As for .300, I think it is what JSP filled in.

Shotguns have a much shorter effective range than the sniper rifle. And they have the limitations of low accuracy and low rate of fire (the only shotgun that can shoot fast has *really* bad accuracy) to go with their high power. And even though they are powerful, they still aren't as useful as dedicated anti-armor weapons on really tough enemies. And lastly: they don't have outrageous crit multipliers. Critical hits are extremely devestating because they throw the Damage Threshold mechanics out the window.

And melee, is...well, melee. It's powerful but it's also highly hazardous since if you screw up your timing on tough enemies you're going to be the one hurting.

Contrast the sniper rifle, which is so accurate that you can hit enemies in the head as far away as you can see them, its extreme precision and abrupt-death-from-nowhere potential balanced by its mediocre close in performance.


>> you're wrong. ratslayer x5, that gun x2.5, lucky x2.5 to name a few, leaving EW completely aside <<

Oh hey, more bugs to fix. (Well, aside from Lucky, which is obviously lucky and intended to be that way)


>> it is not the cover that kills the people, it's accurate aiming, and a powerful weapon. <<

It's the cover that lets you shoot more than once. By staying undetected you can harvest skulls with abandon. Real snipers know that if they are discovered they're in trouble, because while their weapon is powerful and accurate it's also clumsy and slow and not at all suitable to a pitched fight. If you only plan on shooting once and want to shoot for maximum effect, pick up an AMR or gauss rifle.


>> other than that you obviously never tried the dinner bell/riot shot gun in conjunction with cowboy/shotgun surgeon and slugs/magnum shots. <<

My very first character was a shotgunner. Though I never found Dinner Bell on that character. Which isn't a huge thing because Dinner Bell is only a tiny incremental improvement over the basic Hunting Shotgun (Hunting Shotgun feels more accurate once the improved choke is added, plus holds two more rounds which is important for a slow-reloading weapon). Also Cowboy shouldn't be affecting any shotgun except the Lever Action, if it is then this is a bug. And the L-A-Shotgun with Cowboy isn't really amazing compared to the Hunting Shotgun anyway; shoots faster but does less damage, much less accuracy, and doesn't have the 7-shot tube. Good for hosing down one enemy as fast as you can pull the trigger, and then what. It has drawbacks.


>> for that reason i stick with pre-patch version, at least until i decide to make completely new character. <<

This seems like a perfectly workable solution. In future, be aware that energy weapons reward high critchance far more than Guns do (almost all are x1.5 or x2)


>> the reason why i've been using it are the looks and the sound, simple as that. <<

If you want to prioritize look and feel over numeric performance, then you should be playing the PC version so you can customize your game however you want. It is trivial to change the numerical aspects of a weapon.



A battle rifle is a military rifle firing a full sized cartridge intended for effective performance out to around 500 meters, uuuuuusually reserved for self-loading rifles. "This Machine" (an M1 Garand) is the only battle rifle in the game, though if you allow bolt actions then the Hunting Rifle can fit into this group. Other WW2-era examples would be the Soviet SVT-40 and German Gewehr 43. More modern examples of battle rifles are the H&K G3, the US M14, and the FN FAL.

I think it is safe to say imho, obsidian really toned down the guns too much, i did get one hit kills, but they nerfed the energy weapons, and screwed some of the best weapons i loved liked the gatling laser and Fatman, the assault carbine was ok, not my fav, but not terrible either, so i cannot knock it to be honest. :gun:

surely a valid argument, when talking about cqc....




another such valid argument when talking about cqc. and when comparing the rates of fire, it becomes perfectly clear, you've never shot a riot shot gun, as it fires 4-5 times quicker than an sniper rifle, even the hunting shotgun has a higher ROF...




phew, thank god the shotgun surgeon perk doesn't do this



because it's so unbelievably hard to screw up that timing, and i mean, you can only perform an attack once every 30 seconds, lol



now its performance is also mediocre over long distances, you still refuse to get that point. there is no point in choosing this gun anymore.
the problem is, before the patch there wasn't a reason in taking the AMR over the gobi, other than subjective taste.
unfortunately, they solved this dilemma by just reversing the situation instead of balancing it.



sigh. now we're finally in the ignoramus realm, crit multipliers are bugs in general, i see.
no they are not bugs. if you balance the weapons properly, they offer a nice alternative to brute force high base DAM weapons.



i don't want to be shoehorned into an AMR, because i prefer a scalpel over a hammer, and other than that i hate this concept, that a bullet into someones head hits harder, just because the person didn't see me.
it is ridiculous.



now i tell you a secret: the dinner bell has the choke, in addition a spread of just 1.2, which is amazing for a shotgun, and its base and its crit damage are 10% higher than that of a normal hunting shotgun. these are pretty sigificant improvements....




you don't have to tell me,. it's pretty obvious that i'm at least as deep in the game mechanics, as you are, my friend.
still, i like the gobi far more than the gauss rifle and its friggin heavy MFC ammo.




be assured, if i've owned a pc capable of running this game, i would have done that....

Our gameplay experience is fundamentally different, because over here, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tPdrrUKADVs. (I love how you can see little chunks of the deathclaw's head bounce forward). Using .308 JSP ammo instead of standard and getting the Better Criticals perk would only make this weapon *more* powerful.

I don't know that we can form any kind of agreement here because apparently you're playing a totally different version of the game.

This is too deep for me.

this is really. odd. i've just reloaded the patch to check if i did screw something up before. so i went to the deathclaw area in the east, to test it.
when i shoot one in the head, standard ammo, standing, no critical hit, it loses roughly 15-20% of its health. *shrug*
i mean, i'm not surprised, your base damage is 40-15dt -> 25 damage + bonus for the headshot. usually that shouldn't be enough to kill a 250hp creature, even if i don't know exactly how that bonus is applied.
i have the better criticals perk, but, as the name implies, that requires a critical hit. i never complained about the damage when it crits

Damage
x2 for headshot
x2 for critical
x2 for sneak attack critical
= potentially 320 damage

(Obviously less once DT is factored in, and more if you are actually playing as a sniper and have bonuses aimed at making these shots)

Well, I haven't counted but I will test sometime, but sure seems like I get more than 1 in 6. I was dorking off with pew pew the other day and was critting left and right, and I don't even have laser commander yet...

And yes, I realize by chowing food, drinking booze, and snorting buffout I can get str, butt my point remains that str 7 requirement for 12 mm pistol makes totally no sense. Oh, and the smg version has 6. Dur? Meh.. oh, and 10mm pistol str 4, 10 mm smg str 5.

And someone else already answered, but yeah. Battle rifle. If talking WW2 I think BAR would be considered one, but I pretty much had something like G3 in mind. I don't feel assault carbine is one because it 5mm. Plus, I generally consider modern battle rifles to be semi auto or full auto, thus ruling out bolt and lever actions.

The 12.7mm round is comparable to the .50 AE round fired by a Desert Eagle. Most can probably shoot a few rounds of that down a range, but to use it without hurting yourself in a combat situation takes a strong arm. The 12.7 smg has a lower Str requirement as it's heavier and might have an internal recoil compensator or whatnot.

sure, when landing a sneak attack, it still works. but it doesn't anymore outside that, and that is what i'm complaing about all the time...

it isnt supposed to be used in a way unlike that, it is supposed to be a long-distance (far enough that you are Hidden regardless of Sneak skill) and a guaranteed crit aimed for the head. So the question is: Why arent you using sneak attack criticals with the sniper?

Well, I would consider most to have a str of 5. So, I could see a str req of 6. 7 jusrt weird, you're now talking AMR range.

Agreed, it actually makes the game less realistic. Reason, watch the news, assault rifles are common even in Boone County, WV. Why? Because an assault rifle is actually the best over all gun there is, That is why many poor people acquire AK47-style rifles. Therefore, the R91 assault rifle from Fallout Three should have been allowed in the game.

ANd if assault rifles were banned from the game, then the light machinegun should have been available as early as you hit the price for it, too. Fair is only just in this case.

SPOILER ALERT:
Firing from the kneeling position, and said tactic helps you to defeat most enemies faster and with fewer rounds fired, too. A very good gun is the 10mm SMG when when modded with a recoil compensator. Another good weapon is the upgraded service rifle with springs for faster firing rate. The 9mm SMG is best modified with a lightened bolt and drum magazines.

PEW-PEW is probably the best energy pistol in the game, its only fault is that goes through energy cells like crack cocaine. The basic plasma
pistol is probably the best basic energy pistol in the game. One very good .'assault pistol'. and it is the 9mm with the extended magazines, too. Shotguns: Best used with slugs. the Riot shotgun is best, second best is the lever action .20 gauge shotgun.

Lever action rifles: the Cowboy repeater modified with quick loading and a tube magazine; it gives the fire power of about a German Mauser rifle from WWI. The bolt action hunting rifle(.308) with a custom action probably is best for sustained rate of rifle. Its firepower is about that of a Lee-Enfield rifle from WWII.

Proposal to Betheseda: why not have more basic varieties of guns, each with their own attributes to pick from? For example. you could buy either a Lee-Enfield in Good springs, or an M1 carbine with a thirty round magazine. tHe Lee-Enfield would do more damage than the carbine per shot, whereas the carbine would have higher rate of rifle. Handgun wise, you could be given the choice between a Ruger Gp100 .357 magnum with a 6-inch barrel vs. a 9mm UZi pistol with a 25 round magazine. Again , knock down vs. firepower.

Another possibilty could be civilian assault rifles vs. military assault rifles, the difference being that military rifles can fire bursts. Whereas civilian assault rifles
only fire one shot per trigger pull. Example: AK47 military, Civilian MaK90.


would only have

BAR by all means is a machine gun and what we know as ISW.

Again Momaw, anything can do massive damage with sneak crit, it is just the damage seems wrong relative to "cowboy" rounds and Hunting Rifle.

I want a BAR!!! Forget cowboy toy guns (cause that is what they are compared to a BAR!) The LMG is just sad. I want a full auto weapon that costs a ton to shoot, but mows everything down!