Why is the Assault Carbine total poo? : Fallout: New Vegas

» Sat May 09, 2009 6:09 am

Um, how does that justify nerfing the sniper rifle to Cowboy Repeater level of damage? You do know that the Cowboy Repeater can be picked up on the road to Nipton? At level 3?

Nobody is going to argue against the reduction from 5x to 1x crit multi. But the further reduction in base DAM (from 62 to 42) was completely unnecessary. Sawyer whacked the sniper rifle twice with his nerf stick, and the second time was for fun-sies.

Um you know you can pick up a sniper rifle at lvl 1?

Comparing it to other weapons is irrelevant. Can it kill 95% of whatever you'll encounter in 1 hit? Yes it can, so it's still doing its job perfectly fine.

» Fri May 08, 2009 4:09 pm

I don't like that the harder difficulties are basically a multiplier to enemy damage with a nerf to player damage instead of say more intelligent/better equipped enemies. So yeah I'd consider Normal mode along with hardcoe to be the default game when talking about balance discussions. I just recently encountered some Cazadors myself and I had no problem taking out an advlt and two babys within one clip of an All American and another hip firing my Hunting Rifle with JSP in under five hits so Even without the extended mag I wouldn't have to reload. I tested the surplus ammo on the Gun runner goons and didn't notice a change in the number of clips needed to drop an 18 armor 150-180 HP human. It's still 2-3 mags without armor piercing. Meanwhile even though I have around 300 HP now I lost almost half my health with a 20 DT from their Hunting rifles shooting standard .308 while I was whittling a dude down....

Pretty much. The Assault carbine at max damage cannot pierce the standard boy scout uniform of an average NCR goon. NCR armor is 10 plus their pith helmet for 2 is 12; the same damage per bullet coming off an expensive hard to repair gun. The trail carbine is actually valued at 50 caps cheaper and when I tried it against those gun runner goons I wacked one with 3 shots with regular .44 ammo. It simply doesn't justify it's presence when compared to what's available. Maybe if it was right by the door of the docs house when you start the game. The Varmint rifle used for picking off things far away and the Assault carbine up close. Even looking at this video where a guy is attacking the sub 100 hp powder gangers (40-85 hp according to the wiki) he still has to reload alot.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2NMKJsNhQaI

What console are you on btw...
It's just I ran that same video challange with the assault rifle, same build and settings as before with standard ammo.
Aiming at the chest it took just under one clip to kill a PG at that range.
At the head or in iron sights a quarter max.
At longer ranges the same, the rifle was also unmodded.
Only difference was that instead of standing and running / leaping around like a FPS..
I stood up still or walked to get the target into LoS.
This was on PC, maybe there's a glitch on other consoles.

Edit:
At the 188 using AP ammo, I was able to kill 2 troopers and the destitute guy all with one unmodded clip.
Two with head shots, one with torso blows.
Against a leather armoured + headgear wearing traders mec, red shield DT icon it took one clip of standard ammo.

I'll try Hard and V. Hard next.

» Fri May 08, 2009 7:43 pm

Um you know you can pick up a sniper rifle at lvl 1?

Comparing it to other weapons is irrelevant. Can it kill 95% of whatever you'll encounter in 1 hit? Yes it can, so it's still doing its job perfectly fine.

Do tell. Where can I get a sniper rifle at level 1? Also, I agree with you. The sniper rifle does its job fine. Most are mad that they can't use it as an assault rifle anymore.

» Sat May 09, 2009 5:52 am

Do tell. Where can I get a sniper rifle at level 1? Also, I agree with you. The sniper rifle does its job fine. Most are mad that they can't use it as an assault rifle anymore.

Spoiler

Run to Camp McCarran and pick it up in the 1st Recon tent

» Sat May 09, 2009 3:23 am

Edit:
At the 188 using AP ammo, I was able to kill 2 troopers and the destitute guy all with one unmodded clip.
Two with head shots, one with torso blows.
Against a leather armoured + headgear wearing traders mec, red shield DT icon it took one clip of standard ammo.

I'll try Hard and V. Hard next.

I am willing to bet my next paycheck that you can do the same challenge with any of the Cowboy Guns and NOT use a full clip. No wonder the US has been having such a hard time in Iraq/Afgan - we need to rollout some Cowboy Guns!

Looking at the Wiki - Here are the list of guns that the assault carbine can outdamage with a single shot:
22 Silenced Pistol
BB Gun

Thats it folks. Everything is stronger, even the Varmant Rifle does 50% more damage per shot. For a tier 3 gun it is terrible.

» Fri May 08, 2009 5:57 pm

Spoiler

Run to Camp McCarran and pick it up in the 1st Recon tent

I tried to do that in my 3rd game on PS3 and it wasn't there. It was there in a previous game though. An alternative is the Marksman Carbine which has similar numbers and is a little easier to get. I couldn't get it at Level 1 though, only later.

» Sat May 09, 2009 8:19 am

I like the assault carbine w/ap ammo. Been using it as a backup weapon if enemies get too close - it has a high dps, ammo readily available/cheap.

» Sat May 09, 2009 2:13 am

Just to be a complete tool I performed the 188 again same three targets...

All shots directly to the head, close range no criticals, all are none full automatic so have less chance to miss unlike the assault rifle.
9mm basic ammo two clips +.
Cowboy repeater basic ammo 2 none critical shots per trooper, 1 for the traveler.
357. Pistol 6 shots one miss.
Varmit rifle standard ammo over 5, with AP 5 shots.
10mm 4 shots left standard ammo.

Torso shots would increase these numbers, if I had shot all in the head with the assault first time I could have taken a fourth + out.

So are you really saying the assault rifle svcks... it may not be a one shooter, but is far from poo.

I'll try with other guns later, yes its stat requirements are odd.
Saying it's poo is just wrong however.

» Sat May 09, 2009 6:21 am

^^So basically tier 1 guns are more effective then a tier 3 gun.....

If you are using it as a close range "panic" weapon then you are better off using any of the SMG. The tier 3 SMG (12.7MM) will tear things up close range.

» Sat May 09, 2009 9:48 am

As effective, not more so.

At extremely close range, and taking longer to kill the targets, using nothing but head shots.
With which it's highly unlikely to do with a full auto.

» Sat May 09, 2009 9:59 am

But the varmant rifle/cowboy repeater can get those kills long range. No need to get close.

LOL, actually every weapon you listed have less spread then the assault carbine. Which means they can get their kills farther out.

I would agree with the OP - the Assault Carbine is poo.

» Fri May 08, 2009 7:55 pm

Lol potato, potato we're bickering over triffling details..

But it's fun Beancounter..

The assault carabine is less effective when stationary and crouched over a single / double action gun.
If you're moving and walking in and out of ironsights it's better than them.
If being chased down at range by say a cazadore it's better than any other automatic bar the RCW.
If at middle range and you have a low agility it outclasses those fast firing Lever action guns if forced to reload.
It does better than a SMG at anything other than up close, it has a good RoF, it hits more often in game than other automatics.

The old ( useless ) adages apply..
One mans junk is anothers treasure.
If it is not working right, you're doing it wrong.
and..
If you listen to me, you're daft.

» Fri May 08, 2009 10:23 pm

Fully agree it is fun, just wish it was more competive for a tier 3 gun

» Sat May 09, 2009 6:26 am

According to the GECK

9 mm submachine gun
fire rate: 11
min spread:2.2
crit dmg:11
dmg: 11
max range: 1024

10 mm submachine gun
fire rate: 9
min spread: 4
crit dmg: 19
dmg: 19
max range: 768

12.7 mm submachine gun
fire rate: 8
min spread: 4
crit dmg: 36
dmg: 36
max range: 768

silenced 22 smg
fire rate: 11
min spread: 2
crit dmg: 6
dmg:10
max range: 1024

assault carbine
fire rate: 12
min spread: 1.5
crit dmg: 12
dmg: 12
max range: 1024

It appears to me that for it's given range that the assault carbine is the best option. If I've missed any automatic weapons, I'll gladly add them.

» Sat May 09, 2009 12:45 am

Going back to that what would make it work for you.

Going on a non lets just ramp up the damage fix by X.
I would say a drop to 50 skill requirement, more mods, and availability before NV.

@ BarrettsFloyd, thanks for the wiki info.

» Sat May 09, 2009 3:45 am

I tried to do that in my 3rd game on PS3 and it wasn't there. It was there in a previous game though. An alternative is the Marksman Carbine which has similar numbers and is a little easier to get. I couldn't get it at Level 1 though, only later.

Yeah, it can sink into the matress of the bed somehow, making it unobtainable unless you use the noclip command on the PC.

» Fri May 08, 2009 8:10 pm

Going back to that what would make it work for you.

Going on a non lets just ramp up the damage fix by X.
I would say a drop to 50 skill requirement, more mods, and availability before NV.

@ BarrettsFloyd, thanks for the wiki info.

I would agree with those changes. And would like to see a spread of 1 - maybe with a mod. To bad the new Weapon Mods Expands does not have a mod to decrease spread.

Also would like to see a 5.56 version with higher damage.

A fully modded Minigun has lower spread and higher ROF then the Assault Carbine. It is far better then the Assault Carbine.

Overall, I find most full auto weapons lacking in Fallout. But they are a lot of fun to use. Just put out of your mind that the good ole Cowboy guns are better.

» Sat May 09, 2009 12:25 am

Well, what can't the sniper rifle kill in one sneak crit?

A brahmin i'm not jokeing go to mojave out post on normal dam cows .

» Fri May 08, 2009 9:12 pm

A brahmin i'm not jokeing go to mojave out post on normal dam cows .

You must be confusing the sniper rifle with the BB gun.

» Sat May 09, 2009 8:56 am

What console are you on btw...
It's just I ran that same video challange with the assault rifle, same build and settings as before with standard ammo.
Aiming at the chest it took just under one clip to kill a PG at that range.
At the head or in iron sights a quarter max.
At longer ranges the same, the rifle was also unmodded.
Only difference was that instead of standing and running / leaping around like a FPS..
I stood up still or walked to get the target into LoS.
This was on PC, maybe there's a glitch on other consoles.

Edit:
At the 188 using AP ammo, I was able to kill 2 troopers and the destitute guy all with one unmodded clip.
Two with head shots, one with torso blows.
Against a leather armoured + headgear wearing traders mec, red shield DT icon it took one clip of standard ammo.

I'll try Hard and V. Hard next.

I'm on the PC as well. Do you have the Living Anatomy perk so you can see how many hitpoints those characters your testing on are and what their DT is? At the Gun Runner headquarters the armored guard there have a DT of 18 and HP of around 185 while the gun runner workers are around 225+ HP and a DT of 1. A standard NCR Trooper has like 50 Hitpoints. As an aside I also really hate the lack of a unified health system. The courier shouldn't have magical PC health while everyone else is Randomed as all get out. End 5 characters PC or NPC should probably start with 100 health and gain 2 times End per level.

The fun argument is just part of the placebo effect. I like more dakka too which is why I complained about the Assault Carbine but unlike Warhammer Orks people believing in it won't make it true.

@Barret: The other automatic you are missing is the Vance submachine which the wiki doesn't list the range of but in every other statistic it beats the Assault Carbine. Also at range that puts more advantage towards the rifle/cowboy guns. It's just another advantage that's not really an advantage at all.

I think that when Obsidian went to DT from DR they just exchanged one problem for another. If you want to have two different weapon types in a game that is mostly Critical Existence Failure oriented around health you need to have different kind of defenses for each weapon type. Some enemies should be DT oriented and others should be absorption oriented. Mutants and animals would probably be DT oriented because of their beyond human toughness while military opponents in military gear would be absorption oriented and best fought with military weapons.

» Fri May 08, 2009 11:40 pm

@Barrett: The other automatic you are missing is the Vance submachine which the wiki doesn't list the range of but in every other statistic it beats the Assault Carbine. Also at range that puts more advantage towards the rifle/cowboy guns. It's just another advantage that's not really an advantage at all.

That info didn't come from the WIKI, it came from the G.E.C.K. anyway, here is the requested info you asked about.

fire rate: 13
min spread: 1.5
crit damage: 13
damage: 13
max range: 1024

It does look like a better all around gun, but it is a unique version of the 9 mm submachine gun, and they usually are better in their stats than their regular counterparts.

I didn't include the other guns because they are not automatics. comparing an automatic weapon such as the assault carbine to lets say, the Gobi Campaign Scout Rifle isn't really a fair comparison since one of them is an automatic and serves a different purpose than the sniper Rifle which isn't automatic, and is meant for sniping enemies from a long distance.

» Sat May 09, 2009 8:28 am

I think that lever actions overshadow not only other small guns, but just about every other weapon in the game. The cowboy perk transforms them from already amazing guns to death machines. I'd be happier if they'd made a perk called "Trooper" or something increased damage with assault rifles to balance it out, but as of right now it seems that lever actions are the way to go. I loved AR's in FO3; even if they weren't that accurate, they were awesome and fun to use. I was pretty excited to pick up an assault carbine, but not only did it svck, it sounded terrible. IMO, it sounds more like my gramma grinding up pepper than a facking assault rifle.

» Fri May 08, 2009 11:23 pm

The LMG is pretty much the chinese assault rifle of NV. The assault carbine is a slightly bigger smg that has the advantage of AP ammo.

» Sat May 09, 2009 11:30 am

You must be confusing the sniper rifle with the BB gun.

ohh yea it was a brahmin overloard (sarcasm)try it if u don'ttrust me gobi sneak crit + brahmin.

» Sat May 09, 2009 8:53 am

ohh yea it was a brahmin overloard (sarcasm)try it if u don'ttrust me gobi sneak crit + brahmin.

It exploded into a million meaty chunks.