To be fair, beating up an old woman isn't really what I'd call an "impressive feat". The number of quests you have to do don't really give you an opportunity to feel like you accomplished something, not helped by the generic-as-hell antagonists. The issue is also that you're brought into the Circle by two other members who have no idea that you were in Kodlak's dream. Let alone the fact that you could have shown violent tendencies that got two other members kicked out, yet they still go through with giving you this gift without even knowing if they can trust you with it.

What great feats of magic did you perform? The few times you need to cast magic, you only have to do novice parlor tricks. That you're given endorsemant by the Psijics of all people just shows how screwed up the writing is. You may be a grand hero that saved the world (again..), but typically you don't make a wandering hero into your Arch-Mage.

The title Arch-Mage isn't a synonym for "bad-ass". An Arch-Mage is supposed to be a great mage of unparalleled capabilities... someone who has studied and honed their skills on the magical arts more than most. It shouldn't be someone who just happens to complete a quest-line that doesn't even really test your magical abilities.

And the solution is to drop skill requirements altogether? I'll be among the first to say Morrowind's guild quests weren't great and barely had any story, but it at least encouraged use of relevant skills. That you could drop a ton of gold on trainers to level your skills without using them isn't a fault of the skill checks.

It's poor writing. If it really was desperation, you should've had the option to say "My gold's not stolen. I'm an adventurer, not a thief." which would cause him to leave you alone. But instead, all you can really say is "Maayybee..." or "None of your business." (the latter of which invoking a response from him that furthers the idea that you're a thief).

Let us use the http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/LogicalFallacies checklist.
Beating up a priest:
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/AppealToRidicule: Claiming an argument is false by presenting it in an absurd fashion.
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ConfirmationBias: Presenting only data that supports your predetermined position and ignoring data that damages your position.

Which could as easily not be beating up a priest, but rescuing someone, killing bandits, hunting a troll or wild animal or other badass, impressive things.
An errand boy, no, not really.
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/LoadedWords

The second is sending a "novice" AND a member of the Circle, to find shards of a legendary weapon, as culturally significant or more as Caliburn of Excalibur, fighting through a whole Nord barrow at the end going up against a horde of draugr, heh, draugr zerg rush, who has pregame ties to Kodlak, who showed what he is capable of having Vilkas test your arm so they have a somewhat reasonable understanding of what you are capable of.
That is even if you didn't help them fight that giant at your first meeting.

Why? It does make sense from a story and character standpoint.

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ArgumentumAdLapidem: Dismissing an opposing argument as absurd without any sort of support.

That it doesn't make sense to you, doesn't mean it makes no sense at all.
It just means it doesn't make sense to you.
You just don't understand it, but it can be understood.

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/AnecdotalFallacy: Using a personal example as empirical evidence.

The lycanthropy thing is a somewhat valid claim.
You can reject it, but it will keep you from progressing.
Except when putting it into context of the dragonborn nature, mentality and psychology of dragons and the Dovahkiin, refusing power is extremely out of character.
A dragon hating and rejecting power is like a gourmand hating and rejecting great food and lots of it.
The will to power, the hunger for power is in your blood, Dovahkiin.
Tiber Septim wouldn't have conquered all of Tamriel by rejecting his perfectly (super)natural urges and instincts.
Not all accept it and Vilkas also has misgivings, which is what he is talking about to Kodlak only circumspectly when you first meet the two.
Again, http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/LoadedWords, selling your body is more of Sanguines thing.
Aela and Skjor are likely looking forward to entering the Hunting Grounds, to a werewolf that is a Heaven greater than Sovngarde.
You might as well claim Real World Norse wanting to go to Valhalla upon death makes no sense because you cannot understand how anyone could desire an existence of food, mead and eternal fighting.

I can easily counter with the exact examples of being forced into doing things to proceed in Morrowind and Oblivion.
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Morrowind:The_Code_Book
And:
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Infiltration
At least the lack of choice in Skyrim grants me a sweet power and 100% immunity to disease rather than barely any proper reward at all and in Oblivions case, a former employer dead, along with her village.
That is not pathos, just horrible writing, shoehorned in.
Equally forced. Grrrrr, hate that quest.

Horrible pacing, horrible pacing.
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ArgumentumAdNauseam: Repeating an argument over and over until no one wants to dispute it anymore, then claiming it to be correct.
Just because you say it over and over doesn't make it true.
Please give us actual examples rather than repeating it.

Jumping into the main questline isn't as much a problem with pacing unless you like lots of non main quest makework.
Not doing lots of radiant quests before getting into the meat of it is at least to me refreshing.
Some people prefer to do all the to me tedious nonessential stuff which is just filler, giving the illusion of depth and wastness.
I don't like it, but that is just my feelings and opinion, not fact.
Just do one or two minor tasks and then jumping into the adventure proper.
I don't have a problem with it, which doesn't mean it isn't a problem, just that it isn't a problem for me.

The so called MacGuffin, again.
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/LoadedWords
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/AppealToRidicule: Claiming an argument is false by presenting it in an absurd fashion.

The question is, do the Psijics even know enough to explain and exposit?
Are they justified in not doing so, do they have any reasons not for expositing on it even if they did know?
Is it just a MacGuffin or are there other reasons for not stopping to give a lecture and is it even possible that you, the player or even the Dragonborn would even understand it?
Would you be able to understand it or would it just be as much magibabble?
I don't know, I can only speculate.
We are dealing with enormous powers, the power to unmake reality itself, dealing with possibly multidimensional and divine concepts.
The Cosmology in the Elder Scrolls verse is already extremely mindscrewy.
Another question is: Is it possible the College ending will have a later payoff in an expansion or the next game or even the game after that?
I have no idea, but I hope so.

None that I can think of to be honest.
Still, I prefer that system where loot and special items are relevant to the game world and quests and not lying around in some tomb or dungeon for some graverobbing schmuck to claim.
Though the Ghostblade, Longhammer, Frokis bow and Notched Pickaxe, sweet shoutout and easter egg btw are not duplcates in the least having unique properties and enchantments.
That and you find the quests by stumbling upon them by accident by exploring.
So there's that.
I've never even had the quest to find the longhammer because I have never stumbled upon the area when exploring, sad but true.


You wouldn't call that, because you ignore all the other stuff and quests and more impressive feats you do.
Like the rest of the questline.
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ConfirmationBias: Presenting only data that supports your predetermined position and ignoring data that damages your position.

The issue with the two of the Circle is not an issue.
The Companions are divided on the issue of the Beastblood, Kodlak and Vilkas are on pro purity side, Skjor and Aela are pro Beastblood.
If Farkas joins his brother it is three against two, so Skjor and Aela goes behind Kodlaks back to both even the numbers, three against three, but also because of even more ulterior motives such as plain old bloodlust and desire for violence.
Having showed extremly violent tendecies isn't a drawback as far as those two is concerned.
More of an asset, a positive trait.

If you cannot understand their goals, values and ideals then maybe you are more moral and ethical than them.
Or you merely have difficulty with understanding others thoughts, motivations and feelings.
Which is extremely common these days, not just among us guys and us who have Aspberger.

Explored Saarthal. found and helped claim the Eye of Magnus, defeated several necromancers, undead and conjurers and then the Summoner, all to get scholarly lore to help the research, recovered said lore books and rescued a former College member gone rogue.
Survived the ruins of Mzulft which had claimed quite a few Synod researchers. figured out how to use the Oculory by myself, no handholding. rescued Winterhold from the anomalies, braved Labyrinthian, defeated Morokei, found and used the Staff of Magnus and offed an annioying saffron donkey, thus saving the world and all of humankind.
In a metasense, out of the College questlines braved, survived and conquered Shalidors Maze, which is an ancient rite of passage to prove one is worthy of being Archmage.
That and mastering several if not all schools of magic, having more spells than anyone else, even Savos Aren, being a Master of the Thu'um if joining in the main main questline.
You have to metagame like crazy to avoid using, mastering and knowing magic.
And why would you?
I wouldn't.
All my Archmages were Masters of Magic, Thu'um, regular spells and most often both.
That and you don't need to ONLY use magic and you shouldn't and never have had to.

Yes, I agree. The Archmage is supposed to be that ideal.
But even in the Imperial Mages Guild, we have examples of that ideal not being reality in http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Morrowind:Trebonius_Artorius
Old Trebonius IS an exceptional battlemage, but a horrible leader, pathetic in scholarship, but he can toss Destruction spells and lay curses like a pro, which he is.
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Jeanne_Frasoric Isn't the Archmage, only the head of the Bruma Mages Guild, with really poor magic skill, only holding the position because of her influence and connections.
The sad fact is that unsuitable people end up in positions of authority and power despite not qualifying for them, both IRL and in Tamriel.
It is hardly unprecedented.
However I play the game as intended and my Archmages fullfills the criteria and the ideals you mention.
That is not an argument that it is a non-issue, it just is a nonissue for me, personally which is again opinion, not fact or truth, just my personal experience.

The Skill requirements are still there, only not in the terms of advancing in the questline, but getting access to the Master Spell Ritual quests.
The skill requirements are not dropped altogether, just better integrated into the quests.
I like that system better since it is integrated into the individual school masteries rather than metagaming by choosing just one school to have at 90 for every magic faction, Mysticism rocks for that btw since everyone has it as a skill requirement.
You CAN metagame like crazy, but would would you?
That is just dull and abusing poorly done game mechanics.

Given that his hunch worked out in the end I say it was justified.
Personally I have no problems with the "writing" of any faction.
I understand the subtext, the motivations and reasons for why the people do and say as they do.
That isn't to say there are no problems with the "writing" and "pacing", just that I don't see it that way.
Again, opinion, personal experience, not fact.

These side won't ever agree with each other, I guess. One has seen and knows what the other doesn't, and the other sees something in new games which the former doesn't see.

I laugh at people who use TVtropes to make their statements. They don't know how to think for themselves and use some site to tell them something "wise".

You've got your RPG fans and you've got your Action fans. They like things that have opposite requirements, making hybrid games a delicate balancing act. Tip too far towards Action and the RPG fans will be upset. Tip too far towards RPG and the Action fans will be upset.

The TES series has been steadily tipping towards Action since that is the genre that has the (much) larger market appeal. The RPG fans are leaving the series and the few that remain are lamenting the changes with the hope that their voices will be heard and the trend reversed.

The series is not getting "dumber", it is simply shedding the remaining RPG aspects in order to sell more copies and make more money. That's the story behind all game developers. You start out making games that get a cult following because it is directed towards a small, underserved market, then use your success in that market to expand your product and eventually leave your original market once you've secured a foothold in the mass-produced general market via name recognition.

That isn't it at all. TV Tropes lists documented, well-known fallacies with established names. What is bad is not someone referencing that site to say, "See, look what you did," but that people thinking themselves wise commit those fallacies and believe they are making valid points. When confronting a person making fallacious assertions, it can be helpful to show this person that you are not alone in contradicting him. It can be helpful to show him that a statement he believes to be novel and strong is really nothing but some old fallacy that knowledgeable people avoid.

I love it when people compare the mechanics of a DECADE OLD GAME game made with a minuscule budget and small dev team to a $100 million dollar budget game with over triple the dev team size and much better tech.

I only made it through the faction disposition part before I had to turn it off. Yes, the minor changes to NPC disposition were inconsequential and could easily be exploited with bribes.... but that was ten years ago. The point is that they were trying to make something work, any there was any number of limiting factors. That it failed does not demean the intent, especially when later games don't even try. Ten years later, this problem should have been solved. He rags on how a Tribunal Temple headmaster doesn't have any change in dialogue in the MQ and conveniently ignores the lack of recognition from the world about Alduin being defeated, becoming Harbinger, Arch-mage, etc.

And how many of those do you do before joining the Companions proper? One. One radiant quest, and you're then shuffled off to Dustman's Cairn with Farkas. Not only that, but the one radiant quest you get initially comes from Farkas, and is more often than not the Hired Muscle quest.

During Dustman's Cairn, you learn that Farkas is a werewolf. However you are completely unable to voice displeasure at this. Let's be clear here: werewolves are dangerous, deadly monsters. They normally hunt and kill innocent people. You just learned someone who regularly interacts with people in a populated city is one... and you're apparently supposed to be completely okay with this. Further, you can ask and be bluntly told there's more, and you still can't say anything about it. How is that not bad writing?

After Dustman's Cairn, you're then sent off on another radiant quest. The one you get there tends to be a bit more variable, but still it's just one. After that, you're made to become a werewolf.

A total of three quests, one of which is likely to beat up a farmer, a priest, an old lady, or some other random townsfolk, and they want to give you a very dangerous gift. You can't ask them anything, despite the fact that any sane person would have a ton of questions and reservations. You've done nothing to show you can handle it, or that you wouldn't use it for ill, and they've done nothing to assure you it's okay, or that you won't become a dangerous monster lost to bloodlust.

These aren't logical fallacies. These are facts. If it isn't utter incompetence on the part of the characters (which I'd be hard pressed to believe, as it's been pointed out that two other characters have been kicked out for being too aggressive), it is poor writing and pacing.

There are more ways to get power than through lycanthropy. Lycanthropy has a number of downsides which even someone craving power might not want. Just because you might want it for power doesn't mean everyone who wants power should have it.

"MacGuffin (a.k.a. McGuffin or maguffin) is a term for a motivating element in a story that is used to drive the plot. It actually serves no further purpose. It won't pop up again later, it won't explain the ending, it won't actually do anything except possibly distract you while you try to figure out its significance. In some cases, it won't even be shown. It is usually a mysterious package/artifact/superweapon that everyone in the story is chasing.

To determine if a thing is a MacGuffin, check to see if it is interchangeable. For example, in a caper story the MacGuffin could be either the Mona Lisa or the Hope diamond, it makes no difference which. The rest of the story (i.e. it being stolen) would be exactly the same. It doesn't matter which it is, it is only necessary for the characters to want it."

That is exactly what it is. You could easily exchange the Eye of Magnus with the Staff of Magnus, or Auriel's Bow, or some other powerful artifact, and as long as both the College and Thalmor want it, it is perfectly interchangeable as a plot device. It is absolutely a macguffin if they can't stop and explain why it has to be this particular thing everyone is after.

Appeal to Obscurity. The fact that you can't explain what the object is, because the game doesn't even attempt to explain it, proves the point.

Even taking in the next two quests into account, you don't do that much that's impressive. The only somewhat impressive thing you do is Dustman's Cairn. Other than that, it's two radiant quests, and the ones you get may not even be anything more dangerous than what Ria can handle. For a guild of honorable warriors, spanning back nearly five thousand years, what you do before being inducted into the Circle is not impressive.

Skjor and Aela may be pro-beastblood, but they're not stupid. They know honor and respect, and they understand the responsibility that comes with the gift. They're not callous enough to turn people who couldn't handle it; they wouldn't accept Uthgerd because she accidentally killed someone. What makes you think they'd wantonly turn people, particularly ones that can be a danger to innocent people? They're sent out to kill dangerous felons, not enable them.

Of all those things you listed, not one really tests your magic skills. You're not asked to do anything a novice can't. So if Bethesda can't design quests to properly test your magic skills, they can then at least check your magic skills before offering appropriate advancements.

And the state of her guild hall reflects that lack of skill and leadership. The people there are itching to get rid of her and constantly play pranks on her. Does anything like that happen when you're made Arch-Mage with poor skill? No. You can be a warrior with no magical skill, and you'll still be treated like you're the best mage in the world.

The skill requirements for the master spell rituals are nice, but outside of that the skill requirements are integrated terribly in the guild questline. Maybe if you were required to know at least half of these master-level abilities before becoming head of the guild, and the other guilds had something similar.

Except it didn't. My character was not a thief and earned every piece of gold he had. His hunch was dead wrong. But I had no way of telling him this... I could only imply he was right. That is poor writing. It was also poor writing that I, a completely honest and upstanding citizen, can be approached by someone who obviously has ties to the thieves guild, and I can't tell that to the woman standing right behind me who's life mission is to eradicate the thieves guild.

This is starting to get ridiculous.
If you want to make deliberately pedantic posts then you should at least take have the courtesy not to do the very thing youre describing, using skewed data sets and misrepresentation. Such as failing to mention the option to run away from the battle in the Oblivion Fighters Guild quest.
The Eye of Magnus is a McGuffin. Its the very definition of a McGuffin. It has no function but to propel the plot forward. There is no hidden meaning, no subtext, there arent even any hints.
There is a College lecture on the McGuffin that boils down to: "http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:College_of_Winterhold_%28place%29#Lectures."

The Fighters guild questline is quite short and suffers from bad pacing. The gist of what people were saying was correct. You can be asked to beat up a priest. You are a novice who is suddenly entrusted to do something important and then either forced to become a werewolf or abandon the questline.
Whether something is well or badly written is not entirely subjective. There are rules and guidelines to excellent writing. If it was completely subjective then there wouldnt be concensus on what are great works of art, Shakespeare, and what is tripe, Dan Brown. There are do's and dont's. Skyrim writing displays several dont's, such as lack of pacing, foreshadowing, call it what you will.

These are just a few examples mind. I am not going to dissect your post minutely.
If its your thing to go around and dismissing everyones arguments because people are being oh so emotional then at least dont be a http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/StrawVulcan.

This bugs me a lot in Skyrim's quests. It just so obviously made for casual gamers who want to be cool and important ASAP.
I am yet to see a game which would be on par in writing to any more or less good book.
It SHOULD be easier for a game! We have all sorts of visual and audio aid to enhance the immersion, all you need is a solid non-generic plot.

He points out one extreme but fails to point out the other. For example, the issue of the quest marker. He points out how one NPC in Morrowind gave terrible directions and proceeds to wholly agree with the implementation of quest markers in later games. The problem I have with quest markers in Skyrim is that they always point out the location of the smallest item or nearby item, without having the character explore or search for it at all.

The daedric quest where the character is given the task of finding the Torpor in the same room, is given a quest marker, even though the bottle stands out and is very close by. This extreme hand holding takes away the sense of exploration and as a result, makes the game a follow-the-marker game.

Like I said, the design focus is on Action gamers who prefer action. They don't want to look for A, they want A to be dropped into their hands so they can return to carving up enemies and whack-a-mole-ing their way through a quicktime movie. It is an entirely foreign and distinctly unpalatable playstyle to RPG gamers because it removes the things we find challenging and adds the things that Action gamers find challenging.

Immortal NPC's that can only be killed by the player's themselves would probably appeal to both sides. Naturally, the leaders of factions and such would need to be protected from the player's themselves a bit more, but that added protection would only add to the experience and the game.

Factions could've been done better in all TES games, true.

Quest marker's shouldn't be specific. They should limit your search area to an approximate place, and then quest notes and NPC directions would help you find it more specifically. That would be nice.

Yeah, but make it less obvious. For example an Archmage will enter some sort of ethereal state, effectively allowing you to continue attacking if you want upon ending of the spell, yielding/getting expelled/apologising if you did it by accident. Any kind of an assassing leader will turn invisible(for real) in some kind of the same(but not identical) manner.

Imagine how some will whine "wat should I do, why should I look for something, OMG bethesda worst game ever".

Borderlands 2 had zone markers for some quests and I'm pretty sure most everyone could handle it.

Don't get me wrong, I really would love getting rid of these markers, and focusing the game on exploration and actual thinking.

DEMWER PZULZEBAUX!!?!!?!???

(But seriously that thing took a few goes. I noticed it on my third lookthrough of that cavern.)

Give me a break. If you want to explore, do that. Look at the quest arrow once so you can say, "Okay, it's somewhere to the north" then turn it off and wander north until you find it. BOOM. Exploration.

Let's not pretend that, for instance, mindlessly searching a ruin for the Dwemer Puzzle Box was any more "intellectual" than following a quest arrow. The only difference is that one takes longer. Which if that's your thing, great! Do that! The rest of us with actual jobs and responsibilities, who only get 2 days out of the week to play games and don't feel like checking every box, chest, and barrel and scouring every corner in order to move on, will keep using quest arrows and fast travel.

It's hilarious to me that people associate "casual" with children, when children are actually the only ones with enough free time to be "hardcoe gamers".

Why would it be so hard for the quest log to specify where the target is (as far as the quest giver would know)? It's much easier to open the log and read it than it is to open the log, enable the quest marker, look for it on the map (and hope it doesn't give too much away), go back to your quest log, then disable the quest marker (and then keep disabling it every time a quest is updated since it will turn on if you have no quests selected)

No, but it was a heck of a lot more rewarding to find it.

You can use quest arrows and fast travel all you like. We merely want the ability to play without them, and with the way Skyrim's are designed you can't play without quest markers (and often times, it feels like they didn't consider that people would want to avoid fast travel).

So you say, ignore it? And you don't get what I mean by exploring. And for some reason you put words in to my mouth with this infamous dwemer puzzlebox(which wasn't hard to find at all)

If only that was the only issue with Skyrim.

Not all Casual Gamers want to be "cool and important ASAP".
The real difference between casual gamers and hardcoe gamers is the amount of time and money spent on gaming.
However a large portion of hardcoe and Casual gamers are as you say.

Um hey, action gamer here. I would certainly prefer a slower pace(fast paced combat, but slower paced quests). I think exploration and puzzle solving are as much gameplay as action is.

I have stopped paying attention to anyone who uses the word "casual."

That puts you in the minority for action gamers, which is cool. However, please be aware that exploration and puzzle solving are not indicative of an RPG, they are game facets that can be used by any genre to improve the gaming experience. Essentially, Action games are designed to utilize you, the player's, skills, knowledge, and abilities to determine outcomes. Master Chief's gun skills are irrelevant if I can't move my joystick fast or accurately enough to target that Grunt. RPGs on the other hand are designed to utilize the character's skills, knowledge, and abilities to determine outcomes. If my level 5 Barbarian has 1 Intelligence then there is nothing I (the player) should be able to do to assist my character in passing the Mages' Guild entrance exam.

TES is a hybrid of Action and RPG, which is a difficult thing to do since the genres are mutually exclusive. Basically, they take some elements and make them RPG and other elements and make them Action to form a blended game that plays like both (or did, anyway). The series started out on the far RPG end of the spectrum and has been steadily moving towards the Action end over time. This is what causes these discussion as the older fans and the new RPG fans are not happy with the direction the series is taking while the old Action and new fans are loving the changes and don't understand why some people are complaining.

As long as the trend continues, each RPG fan will eventually make one of two decisions:
1. View TES as an Action game and play it as such.
2. View TES as an Action game and no longer play it.

Both decisions are "right" for the individual who makes it, and to be honest Bethesda doesn't care which one you make since RPG fans are a shrinking minority in their target market.