Just thought I'd share a link to Jingles1215's response to Samyoulonline's video 'the Dumbing Down'.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LEI4yS7sFEw

He makes some excellent points, and it's well worth watching considering the number of times the Dumbing Down video has been posted. Your thoughts?

I didn't watch the video yet but both sides are kinda right in a way its been dumbed down in a few ways but in other ways it hasn't.

I don't think the argument is worth a bunch of 20-minute videos.

An interesting video with good points.

Next time you post a link, could you drop the m part of the url? It makes it easier for all of us who use computers.

What's the point of all of these videos, are they trying to change people's opinion of a game?

Even if their was a video or post that proved Skyrim was better than Morrowind or Oblivion in everyway, I still would think Morrowind is the best TES.

Ah, sorry. I posted this from my iPad, and didn't think to remove the link to the mobile site.

A few responses I have:
"Characters can't die because Radiant AI puts them in danger."

While true, he misses a couple key points: Skyrim has a "protected" mode for NPCs which protects them against outward threats, but still allows them to die if you're the one killing them. If the concern was because they could be killed by some random dragon attack or by wandering outside of the city, you can make them protected so they can't die accidentally, but can die if you want to kill them. Making them not suicidal would also help -- random townsfolk equipped with an iron dagger, if that, just may have a bit of trouble against a dragon or troupe of vampires.

Also the number of essential NPCs is frankly insane. Stumble on a random fort filled with bandits or necromancers. Work your way up killing all the baddies, get to the final room and take out the final area boss and.. wait, what? She won't die? Well no, because she's involved with some miscellaneous quest you haven't triggered yet, and you didn't talk to her to initiate combat properly.

"Quest markers are needed because Morrowinds directions svcks."

This would be true if the quest markers merely replaced directions, but it goes much farther than that. They point out the exact location a target is at, even if the quest giver would have no idea of that precision. In addition, they take out just about everything about the target location from the dialog or journal.

For example... Maven Black-Briar, the most infamous and influential lady in Riften, and perhaps Skyrim. You're told to go meet her, and no one can tell you where she is -- not your friends, not your spouse (if they're living in Riften), not her family, and not even the quest log. She's not at her house, and she's not at any of her usual hang-out spots. The only way to find her is to play catch-the-arrow.

The vast majority of Skyrim's quests are like that, too. You're told you need to find something, and the only thing that gives you a hint at where to go is the quest marker, which leaves little for you to search for yourself.

EDIT:
It should be noted that I'm not against quest markers and essential NPCs in principle. But the quest markers should be there as a backup for when you just can't figure out the directions (or in cases where directions wouldn't be possible, like with radiant quests). It should supplement the directions and quest log, not replace them.

Essential NPCs should also be reserved for quest-critical NPCs that absolutely must remain living at all costs... a number of them don't need to be protected at all, and others can be protected instead of essential.

It's never been about changing opinions, and you're right, no one's opinion is going to be changed. It's about spewing opinions, and sounding smarter than your peers. I'm really tired of people complaining about this non-existant schism between "hardcoe" and "casual" gamers.

I absolutely agree with this.

And while I don't think Skyrim is actually too dumbed down, it is missing features that should be in the game, which bothers me more than anything.

I watched both vids and concede both arguments have valid points.
What samyoulonline does wrong is that many of his arguments are A: Based on feelings rather than rational thought and higher reasoning B: Wrong and C: Repeated in the belief that it makes it true.
Shallow, plastic, dumbed down, casual gamers, blah blah blah.
Make sure your argument aghainst something is actually true before claiming it as such.
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/LogicalFallacies
Use that link as an example of what to avoid when argumenting rather than as a checklist on what to use, like sammy boy and even more sadly the vitriol spewing elitist crowd.
I love Morrowind to bits, but I won't be blind to it's flaws or glorify it for something it isn't and doesn't do.
I have plenty examples of why Morrowind rocks without misrepresenting it or making them up.

Yep. While Skyrim and Oblivion can do some things better, it has nothing to do with "dumbing down".

I take it that the first video's strongest point (that you simply can't fail in Skyrim) was one of the ones the creator of the second video agreed with, since he didn't address it at all.

While I'm inclined to be somewhat in agreement in much of his contrast of Skyrim to Morrowind, he didn't compare Oblivion to Skyrim much. I thought Oblivion had a pretty decent journal system, for example. I also like how NPCs interacted with both each other and the world at large better than Skyrim. Oblivion still had attributes, spell making, a disposition system, armor degradation and quite a few other things that were nixed from Skyrim while still solving most of the problems the second video creator cites regarding Morrowind.

So if Oblivion could solve many of Morrowind's percieved shortcomings without gutting too many of the fans favorite features, why couldn't Skyrim? Contrasting Skyrim to an 11 year old game without adequately factoring in the game that came between them probably isn't the best way to make his point.

I love how he continues to throw around the term "nostalgia goggles", just as Sam threw around the words "casual" and "dumbed down".
I know many people that have played Skyrim or Oblivion first and simply prefer Morrowind, it's not nostalgia, it's opinion, or the feel to be in that hardcoe crowd that makes you feel superior to the person next to you, but it's usually opinion from what I've seen.
Personally I like Morrowind mostly because of the ideas that they tried to implement (factions, journal, trying to get information by talking to people and not stupid arrows), the problem is I personally think a lot of those things were implemented poorly, but the problem I have with Oblivion and Skyrim is that instead of trying to fix these great ideas or update them they simply abandon those ideas and try to go the simple easy way. Skyrim and Oblivion however still did a lot of things that I liked and preferred over Morrowind (combat, voices), which allows for all the games to have a great amount of depth in their own way, BUT in that they also leave a lot to be desired in their own way.
Simple version: I think I like Morrowinds ideas more than the actual game (which I still love), and these "dumbed down" opinion videos made me want to write an angry letter on the forums.

What I'd like Beth to do is to implement the ideas from Morrowind and make them not svck as much and actually make most of them work.

I agree with him in regards to the dialogue in Morrowind; in short, I thought it was unengaging. With each NPC I talked to, I never felt I had any impact on the dialogue and rather than engaging in a meaningful dialogue, I felt I was only there to question them.

From Oblivion to Skyrim, they are going in the right direction though... but still weak to what I'd like to them achieve.

Well, the animation was better, yes, but the actual writing and dialogue was very vague and un-engaging. They basically said the bare minimum.

I do agree with his points on essential quest NPC's, but the problem is how the NPC's remain essential even after the quest is over and they no longer have a use. Take Delphine for an example. She's one of my most hated NPC's and I always wanted to kill her, but even after you refuse to kill Parthuurnax and she abandons the Dragonborn's quest; she and Esbern still remain essential. Her and Esbern will no longer have any useful dialogue for you therefore their lives are now useless to you, and you should be able to take them. The only real way to fix situations like those is by using mods.

To make the claim that in Skyrim you can't fail, the dumbed-down video only considers failure in quests and blithely dismisses dying as a legitimate form of failure. You can fail in Skyrim. You can fail to open a lock, and fail to sneak past an enemy, and fail to kill an enemy, and fail to evade an enemy, and fail to persuade someone, and fail to win a non-fatal fist fight, and fail to pick a pocket. These failures, and others, can and do result from how you have built your character's skills, perks, and attributes, and from how you choose to apply them. You can fail quests too, not just by dying, but in other ways too. You can fail some Thieves Guild quests by killing someone, or by being arrested.

Only one franchise has been dumbed down and far removed from what the series is. It's not Elder Scrolls, it's not Final Fantasy, it's freaking Resident Evil. 6 doesn't even feel like a RE game, it's a Die Hard movie without Bruce Willis.

On topic, I think it's just the design choices in each game being different, as beth tries to figure out tha to keep, improve or scrap for the next game.

I love this post.

amazing love the video.

The other thing with Reduced NPC interactions that both videos failed to point out. Audio files take up space. That is a big reason why dialogue was reduced. It takes up space and is costly to produce.

I am inclined to agree with Jingles about Casual Gamers. Blaming casual gamers for certain design choices is not productive.
Casual Gamers are as diverse as hardcoe gamers, the only difference is the amount of time/money they spend on games.
I was very much a Casual Gamer when I started Morrowind.


One of the things I feel was lost from Morrowind was exploration. The thing I most enjoyed doing in Morrowind was poking around the backrooms of a temple or the cantons in Vivec.
And finding something tucked away in a storage room. That's how I found the Morag Tong completely by accident.

they need to find a middle ground. the reason "hardcoe" gamers are upset is because skyrim doesnt give the option to play with the map markers off because theres not enough info. was skyrim close to filling up the maximum space at 5gb. i have stowm of swords on audiobook its 1200 pgs or so and its 1 gb. they could add the line person a is at location x, and go up the road and make a left to every npc in the world and itd be like 100 mb at most. morrowind reacted to your choices much much more. it wasnt the first i played. oblivion was. but i like them all so much i just want to be able to play the way i like which is roleplaying and not flyring through it following arrows.

Why would they have a quest failed message in Skyrim if you cannot fail?
My characters have failed both in quests, tasks, skill uses and I am not the only one.
That argument as the rest is less based on objective fact than passionate bile laced rhetorics ignoring the actual gameplay in favour of belittling others so that one can feel superior to us common casual gamer plebs.
How about failing to protect the people of Skyrim from dragon and vampire attacks?
I call that failure. Especially since that NPC wasn't essential and had no one to take over her shop and now I am down one shop to buy and sell stuff.

Joining the Legion after killing the Emperor removes the Titus Mede part of the oath, isn't that consequences and response to your actions?
Seeing the armour he used I would guess it was another Dawnguard glitch.
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Joining_the_Legion
Sorry, wrong again elitist fan.
Claiming that the game has NO consequences for actions requires blatantly ignoring the vety real consequences of the quest results and actions you do in the game.

No betrayal?
I can't remember much betrayal in Morrowind, but joining the Civil War for one faction and then switching sides by taking the Jagged Crown to the opposite faction stands out.
What I do remember is playing two or three sides against each other while gaining the admiration and confidence of all sides.
Which is cool on a conceptual level but in terms of gameplay and game mechanics it was poorly writen and executed with no con sequences for my actions.
I saved a hostage from the Telvanni but they love me because I helped "exorcise" a ghost from the hostel.

The whole exploration is dead argument is as the British coloqualism goes boll*boop*.
If one stops to think instead of feeling seething, passionate self righteous anger and feelings of being betrayed and upset one realizes this is not the case.
Morrowind had so many cool secrets and hidden nooks and crannies, with the implication that Skyrim doesn't.
Which is you know, wrong.
Quest markers are only used for quest people and quest areas.
Follow the magic GPS quest marker if you must, but going off the beaten path where no quests lead you to, actually exploring and you will find cool hidden things, secrets, nooks and crannies.
Or Gods forbid, exploring the rest of the quest area which has secret rooms, hidden stuff and out of the way interesting stories and not just blindly rushing to the quest objective.
No "handholding" just like in Morrowind and Oblivion.
That hasn't been changed or "dumbed down".
I forgot to add that not every quest has the magic GPS marker, it is not omnipresent.

At the end there, that was the first time I have even considered the prices of daedric items.
It would never even occur to me to check the prices of the ring of Namira or Wabbajack because while I am a casual gamer I would never even think of selling off a daedric artefact like some common trinket.

NPC talk in Skyrim is also more than just what they tell the Dragonborn.
They talk among themselves, sharing confidences, foreshadowing things, add a bit of extra depth to their actions which would not be readily appearant when talking to them face to face.
Braith, she beats up Lars Battle-Born, which makes her seem very unsympathetic, but listen to her trying to talk to her parents.
Be a fly on the wall, don't rush through the next quest objective, but take some time to stay a while and listen, hehe.
Take some time to smell the roses, find out that there is more to the NPC's than their quests and dialogue to you.
It isn't perfect, but much better and with more depth than in Morrowind and Oblvion.
NPC1: I saw a mudcrab the other day.
NPC2: Disgusting creatures, did you stay well clear of it?
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Lars_Battle-Born
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Braith

Just one of many examples where the depth and dialogue is expanded and shows that you the dragonborn is NOT the center of the universe which everything revolves around.

...Are you really going to take the omission of 'Titus Mede II' as any kind of relevant consequence, or a betrayal that has no reprecussions other than delivering the crown to Tullius?

In the meanwhile, let's take a look at the faction questlines. You are inducted into the Circle in a span of two quests (and three generic radiants, where you could en, and then you can't refuse being a werewolf. You aren't even told why being a werewolf is necessary, and then you're faced with the Silver Hand, who are about as compelling antagonists as your everyday Bandit.

And then there's the College. You're...an errand boy, seriously. The extremely quick pacing leaves no room for anything resembling a storyline. In Oblivion, at least you had to work for it, and in the end you gained Traven's trust because you worked for it. There's no such build-up in Skyrim, where you're faced with the Psijics in the first quest alone. (And before you give the same verbose "you're the Dragonborn" reply, that falls apart if you're roleplaying a non-Dragonborn by not starting the MQ). At least the Companion had some form of pacing via Radiant Quests.

The Thieves' Guild. Lulz, you're railroaded into it because Brynjolf calls you out on...having cash in your pocket. I mean, it's not like a professional adventurer would be clearing out bandit holes or slaying evil mages or anything! I think just how shoddy the TG storyline is has been discussed to death. In Oblivion, you had to work on actually finding it!

There are good quests in Skyrim, but they're buried under bugs, lack of consequence, or just weird writing. The Necromancer's Amulet went from being the focus of a MG quest and possibly one of the most potent artifacts around to...a court wizard calling it a necromantic trinket. I'd be more worried about how an artifact of a legendary necromancer actually got into the Butcher's hands.

Skyrim has graphics, combat and exploration. That's all it has going for it. Loot is generically boring, with nothing really unique. You could go into any random cave and know you're going to get some random &--#60;x something of y&--#62;, rather than Morrowind, where you could get stumble across gems like Denstagmer's Ring just by complete accident. Oblivion had the same problem, although there was unique gear with the vendors and unique generic loot (Boots of the Olympian, Mundane Ring, etc). It's like I'm playing WoW, only in WoW there was at least the tiny chance of getting a rare or - very, very rarely - an epic.

Hell, even the bosses could stand to drop something interesting. At least Mankar dropped unique robes and a staff.