if you listen closely you will hear the contradiction

indeed

dogs, cats, etc will as well.

Many breeds of canines will attack and kill larger animals by themselves, same with some felines.

Rodents can be agressive as well, larger ones mostly (larger rats have been known to attack people and animals, killing dogs and cats. Even the cute cuddly tree rats will kill cats and smallish dogs which are larger than them)


But on topic:

All the complaints I see in this thread... apply as well to the old fallout games as well (limits to where you can go, generic scripted AI, etc)

As for the humor, it's more subtle in Fallout 3 vs the loney tunes levels of fallout 2 (fallout 1 was in between 2 and 3) And the main bits of humor in Fallout 3 are conversation choices (gallows and sherif sims for example) and mostly situational (a certain door with a message, a room full of plungers, a certain rube goldberg situation in a store, etc)

As for comparing it to other games, unless you base it on hybrid FPS/RPGs like it... then the comparison is apples to oranges. Fallout 3 vs Final Fantasy (any) or Fallout 3 vs Unreal Tournament...

Ahh, true. But your taking it out of context. I only am "that way" when it is on an important subject, not on an unimportant subject that i could care less about. And for that, i am not normally selfish in that other situation.

I can see where youd think thats a contradiction, but it really isnt if you can put it into context like i am.

Again, this does not invalidate a single one of them.

My opinions on the named characters, cardboard cut-out, tiresome and shallow, mildly interesting, hollow antagonist character, forgettable, better in F2, almost on par with Marcus in F2, uninteresting, mildly intriguing, forgettable patriarch, mildly interesting, empty, forgotton, respectively.

Many on the list I remember the name of or a token part of their description, but little else. Braun was somewhat interesting, most of the rest weren't. I do, however, like the few bits of text in the game, such as in some of the offices, or the holotapes. More of those wouldn't have gone amiss!

Replying because I am bored at work today, and this is an interesting topic.

Most of my arguments about inconsistencies, animal behavior, and things that flat out don't make sense really come down to this: When is it going to change?

When comparing this game to Fallout 1 or 2, Morrowind, Oblivion, etc.. at what point are we willing to demand more from game companies?

Yes, animals do attack humans. They do attack things larger than them. But they do it with a purpose, and not like mindless drones. Alligators don't attack hippos for the most part. Lions go after the weak, not the strong. Why does every single animal in Fallout consistently attack you on sight? I thought it was silly in Fallout 1 and 2 (especially the stupid rats), but got by it by imagining other animals in the wastes that I walked past and therefore did not create encounters. Here, I cannot do that. Every animal has this need to attack instantly anything else that moves, which simply defies animalistic behavior as we know it. Things do attack other things, both bigger and smaller, but not just because its there. Except for housecats, because they are bored. =p

Further, the people in the houses. Yes, they could commit suicide, have been murdered, or some other incident. It was creepy in the first house. It was kind of creepy in the second. It was expected and not creepy in the tenth house. Every time I go in a house now there is body here, one there, another one over here. I also noted how there is a lack of bodies in the houses that were destroyed. Why not make it creepy by having one or two houses with bodies and building on that with suicide notes discussing a decision by the mother to kill the daughter to save her from the fallout? Why not see a letter of the two in the bed professing their love prior to death? Why not have something more in-depth than what we had in games 10 years ago? Sure, the graphics have gotten better, but has the game itself? Do you feel like the enemies in Fallout 3 are that much more sophisticated and alive than those in Duke Nukem or Wolfenstien? Attack on sight (and sometimes before even seeing you). If not, why not? Are we all just going to be placated with better and better graphics and pretty much the same game?

Now, after all this, I really do enjoy Fallout 3. I do. I just don't think it is advancing the genre of open world games in a way that pushes the envelope and creates a world where other entities actually feel somewhat alive. I see a dog, i am ready for a fight. Always. Same with the raiders. Every raider is exactly the same in personality and action. I want better. I think we all deserve a better game after this many years of re-using the same enemies. I want the next Fallout to be better, and not just through graphics.

It does, when it applies to even the games held up as what should be done in the game.

All games have the same limits, same problems where the devlopers work with the system and capabilites to give you a game.

You learn to deal with the limits of the systems or you look foolish complaining about things that can't be done with current hardware/technology.

No computer AI is going to be able to match a human for many years (when we have desktops that make supercomputers of tomorrow look slow)
No game is going to be totally free to explore, there will always be the 'walls' limiting where you can go and do

In the end, if you complain about the game not doing the impossible... it is invalid complaints

It does if the arguments are used to build the statement that Fallout 3 isn't a Fallout-game, if the game have the same flaws as the two first game had.

aaaah...just when i started to forget why i rarely comes here anymore...

Thanks for the reminder.

ok...leave you guys to it then.

* closes the door*

Suicide notes.
One of the Keller tapes ends with whats in my sig and if you find the dead dad of that chick that joins up with you at the museum you will find a note to his daughter written when he knew he was dying. Maybe not a suicide note but close enough. Not a big deal just thought I'd point it out. The game is full of little stories that do not require written words (unlike the originals). This game is a rare gem in many instances. There is a richness to the environment that most games do not have. If you played 100 hours or less you probably missed it. Almost anybody who says,"Okay, I "beat the game", now what?" Probably missed it. I loved the Keller tapes. If they were little pop ups that you had to read they wouldn't have had near as much impact. And those Dunwhich Building tapes. The desent into madness. Can't do that with little pop ups.
Comedy and NPCs? Moira Brown. Lots of people hated her and found her annoying. I loved her. Thought she was hillarious. Perfect fit in the Fallout world, IMO.

Indeed... fallout 1 & 2 whacked you over the head with stuff

Fallout 3 makes you think and doesn't really show you things so much as makes you earn them (quest markers and all aside). The humor is there, as is the darkness... it's just part of the world and background rather than tossed into your face again and again.

agreed.

most fallout 3 hater are just biased original series fan.

they should try to see the game for what it is.

i loved the original series.

but i was able to look at fallout 3 for what it is.

If It was not for us Biased Original series fans Fallout would have never become popular and Bethesda would have never bothered to buy the rights to Fallout, so no Fallout 3.
Lucky that New Vegas is being made by the people that made fallout 1/2 and would have made 3 "Van Buren".

It is not that alot of us Original fans hate fallout 3 it's just that it does not have the same humor or good story telling of the first 2.

Disagreed. Most of those critical of Fallout 3 are original series fan who only want the series to maintain its level of writing


They see the game for what it is

I loved the original series, and am able to look at Fallout 3 as what it is.


P.S. Generalizations are bad

Both sides make the mistake of lumping dissenting opinions into "biased fan boy gibberish" but this doesnt dismiss the problems raised in most of these criticisms. And even if Fallout 3 is (and i dont believe it to be) the equivalent in depth, maturity, combat, and writing to Fallout 1 and 2, that doesnt mean we can't shouldnt hope for something better.

I was one of the people who played fallout since 2000 or maybe like 2001-2003ish Hell I don't remember the exact year. I do enjoy fallout 3 as a game and probably one of the biggest fallout fans you'll meet. I was more disappointed with fallout 3 than hated it. I thought fallout 3 was an amazing game but what made me upset was the weapons. Maybe like 3 weapons were from the original fallout and would have really enjoyed the game more if they brought back the classic weapons such as the 3mm EC Guass rifle (not the anchroage one) and guns such as a the Bozar .433 pistol and so on. The combat shotgun was a disappointment as it did not look like the city killer from the original games, and the plasma rifle was an even bigger shock. I was really looking froward to seeing all my favorite fallout weapons in a big 3d modern day engine but was greatly disappointed in that aspect. Sure what got me through it was well its in a different part of the country so maybe more weapons survived on the west coast than the east coast. And yes the super mutants didn't look the same but I adapted to it and still enjoyed the game. If they would have had all the classic weapons it would have been a perfect game in my opinion. But then I discovered the classic fallout weapons mod and it kind of filled in that gap of disappointment but all those weapons should have been in the game in the first place. Fallout 3 was still a great game and I consider it cannon I mean where else would the enclave go after their defeat they do have vertibirds they have the ability to retreat to washington D.C.

That much I can mostly agree with. Prior to release I could agree 100%. I believe the writing is there, it's just not in writing. I also think there's a lot of critics that have popped up since release that are not original fans and the writing that is there is simply lost on them. They are used to being lead around by the nose and told what to do next by that big glowing highlight. When left to their own devices they are simply lost.

Then take a look at WarHead's complaints. Claims to be "one of the biggest fallout fans you'll meet". I have absolutely no reason to doubt him and he has been playing it a long time. Not one word about the writing. He just misses the old weapons (most of them from FO2, not FO). Many claim that some of these weapons are not "canon", especially the Bozar.

Then theres me. I started with Wasteland (1988 C 64) Weapons are fine (though I really miss the Funky Gerbil when you torch people), writing is great, my problem is with Gamebryo. The reason my sig says "Old School Fallout Fan" is because when I started here, all there was for old fans was "hardcoe" fans who just wanted to [censored] that they weren't getting Fallout 2.5.

Because all love has gone.

Xbox Live has died.
PSN Is full of people who send you messages saying "0MFG LRN 2 SNPE NUB"
And Computer, Computer owns the rest of the love In the world. Because, There are no annoying little 2 year olds on computer.

Very good. I must say I really disliked that magical green highlight telling me where everyone and everything was.

I wasn't aware there was any contention as to the canon status of the Bozar. Hell one of my firmest memories was looting Bozars and Bozar Ammo (whatever it was i cant recall) from that outpost right outside NCR and then using it (and a few other weapons) to bring the wrath of god upon their heads.

Finally i too missed the Funky Gerbil. I had a character, Hans something or other, for Fallout 3 that was going to be all about burning people to cinders....but yeah the fire effects were underwhelming. He ended up just caving in skulls left and right. Ahh....good times.

My ultimate problem with Fallout 3 came with all the characters just being too cookie cutter. I didn't feel bad about killing anyone as a bad guy and didnt feel all that holy killing anyone as a bad guy (aside from enslaving Bumble and killing that scientist in They!)

*Edit*

Actually thats not quite giving Fallout 3 proper credit. I felt pretty good icing The Overseer, the head of the slavers, and that little kid who runs Lamplight (in my mind)

All right so I read about three pages into the thread before posting, so haven't read the whole thing. AntiBody makes sense to me. Read his offerings at the start of the thread and be content. It doesn't matter that people hate the game, he's right, or that the people who created the game they hate let them bang on about hating it in the forums. Heh. Why they hate the game is the question.

I didn't play the first games but having played Fallout 3 I've read up on the fluff. I consider myself a fan of Fallout. Those original fans now hate me, no doubt. I would go out and buy the first games but I don't wanna see the isometric roots of something I like now, with no sign of them. I'm content with knowing it's probably something like Icewind Dale which I loved and still love, but in a setting that is fully realised in Fallout 3, more so than the originals. Going backwards like that, for me, It'd be like looking into my family background and finding a retarded ancestor grinning at me from an old insane asylum photo taken in 1876, on game day, surrounded by a bunch of other mongoloid crazies playing poker with scraps of paper and no cards, whilst salivating earnestly into their pressed jumpsuits wondering what the bright flash capturing their deformed beauty is all about.

Here's my "O" though. I think if Fallout 3 had fallen on its ass and flopped big time, and if the franchise hadn't been rekindled by its massive success... those original Fallout fans would be hugging its case and licking the disc, because it'd mean they still belong to a special group of people all loving something nobody else was playing. The "I found it first" sensation of being a kid with a cool toy, finding other kids with the same toy, having thought nobody else understood just how cool the toy was, then hating them for it. The larger the crowd of kids liking the their toy? The more exaggerated the hate for the toy becomes when other kids are around to listen. lol

S'called nerd-fever. S'a bit like cabin fever. Using the Wiki description of that: Symptoms include restlessness (must play and love original Fallouts forever), irritability (can be found screaming at their monitor when playing anyting other than Fallout, which they know backwards and stopped being challenged by ten years ago), forgetfulness (why do I hate Fallout 3 again?), laughter (the scary kind), and excessive sleeping (when your only objective for the day is to hate on something, you prefer to stay asleep), distrust of anyone they are with (read: anyone who likes Fallout 3), and an urge to go outside even in the (less miserable) rain, snow or dark. (But they never do.)

That was amazing. Well said

I wouldn't say you've hit the nail on the head but yes I do miss the weapons thats for sure. Those are just a few guns I thought of on the top of my head. The sniper rifle, hunting rifle, the flamer didn't look like the originals, no 14mm pistol, no desert eagle.The energy weapons were completely redesigned and don't look a thing like the ones from fallout 1, fallout 2 had all the same energy weapons and some added The only things that looked like the classics were the assualt rifle 10mm pistol and SMG the brass and spiked knuckles, It was like after that they decided to redesign everything else after that. And who is to say fallout 2 and its weapons aren't canon? That makes no sense! The weapons was my biggest complaint, as for the writing it was okay it wasn't the greatest and it was lacking in a few aspects. But why do people not consider fallout 2 canon and act as if fallout 2 has nothing to do with the fallout series its actually more of a true sequel to fallout than fallout 3 is.

in 10 years Fallout 3 will not even be in the bargain bins
why?
because it's not that special

don't believe me?
show me a new or used copy of Daggerfall available in a store

about your retarded ancestor, nice anology, had it made any sense, that is

what you are saying, would be the same as:

"I don't watch black and white movies, because they have no color, hence they are crap"

agreed

Fallout 1 - 2 are back on the shelves because Fallout 3 is a big success, not because they're in any way so epic they have to be constantly re-released. It's not a stretch to imagine when Fallout 7 (or whatever) is released, on the back of a few games kicked-off again with gameplay features first found in Fallout 3, that Fallout 3 will see another release in the future. Mayhap skipping bargain bins. Unless you can see the future? That'd make me wrong.


If I played the old Fallouts I know it would leave me feeling extremely "bleh", which is the way finding a retarded crazy ancestor in my family tree would make me feel. Extremely "bleh".


That's not what I'm saying at all. I'm not big on retro-gaming. Like I mentioned Icewind Dale, I loved and still love it, but it's who I play and RP with that makes it good for me still. When I attempt a single player game I find it dull and dated, sure the story is still great, but the limited gameplay can be found in mobile-phone games these days. Me thinks I'd find playing Fallout 1 and 2 the same. With that in mind, I have actually tried to sit and watch a few black and movies, but they've almost always been tatt. The film industry has come on leaps and bounds, as with games, and classics are only really classics when you were around to really appreciate them when they were new. Retro gaming makes me meh. Nostalgia gives me energy to put the games in to play, but realisation of how far we've come and what I'm used to now leads me to usually turn them off quite quickly. I loved some Atari 2600 games, but I can't play any of them now for longer than two minutes.

I was taking a stab at the 'hate Fallout 3' section of the original Fallout fanbase. Not attacking the original games. That would be as stupid as their hate, since they inspired the game I like. Fallout 3.

Edit: The game that revamped the franchise the original fanbase profess to love so much.

I wouldn't say everybody part of the classic fallout fan base hates fallout 3, I wouldn't put myself in that category I liked all 3 games but fallout 3 did have a lot of disappointments if you were expecting the classic items and the classic dialog system and style of writing to be in fallout 3. Its not fair to say I hate fallout 3 just because I'm a fan of the originals. Thats like saying the people who liked terminator 1 and 2 hated terminator 3 just because they were fans of terminator 1 and 2.