Why the HATE for Athletics, Acrobatics

Post » Wed Mar 30, 2011 3:20 am

I've noticed you've made this point before, xarnac. I disagree. I think the devs of TES always to make as 'realistic' (maybe believable is a better word) a game as possible. while i am hopeful that perks and whatnot will make it possible to jump farther and higher, i would not be surprised or upset if we cant jump from the road, let's say, to the roof of a house.

Its in the lore, been in all the games. The Devs knew what they were doing. I say it so much because its true. I dont want to go down the "Do you even know, or even payed a TES" route, but its starting to turn into that. Its lore, its canon, its in the games and everything else. If you dont like it, dont use it. Ive given a way to fix it so people that dont like it, will never see it. If your still against it, then your against how TES/Mundus works.

We all know what everybody is going to say, so Im out. Peace!
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Jinx Sykes
 
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Post » Wed Mar 30, 2011 7:11 am

Why the hate?

Basically - broadly - probably unhelpfully - this is the dynamic:

Beth announces that it's cutting something.
Beth frames that announcement with a criticism of whatever it is that they're cutting as justification for cutting it.
Beth's ardent defenders, professional and amateur alike, pick up the criticism and start repeating it, essentially word for word, relentlessly.
And suddenly, this thing that nobody complained about six months ago is horrible, awful, redundant, pointless, stupid and thank Akatosh it's gone good riddance.

And that's pretty much that.


Agreed, noone should ever actually agree with Bethsesda. They are the devil!

Instead lets constantly complain about how RPGs used to be even though we all know they are changing every gen.
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Melissa De Thomasis
 
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Post » Wed Mar 30, 2011 4:22 am

As everyone already knows, the only attributes are Magicka, Stamina and Agility. I get that. However, in a lot of articles Athletics and Acrobatics have been dogged in a lot of articles.

Those were my two favorite stats in the game. My sign in Oblivion was the Steed and my character was an archer only night elf that sported Dark Brotherhood armor till end game.

My guy was so fast, nobody could catch him. I would run circles around any enemy in the arena, and climbing the Tower of the Nine was awesome (I kept Springhell Jacks Boots).

Now, I know there will be a sprint button, but I'm afraid this won't mesh well with my usual evil stealth character. With a sprint button, I can imagine something similar to the top FPS shooters out right now, which would probably work better with a warrior then a stealth toon, IMO.

Am I alone on this? Or do others have love for these two stats?


I don't think anyone hated having a character that ran very quickly, or could jump high in Oblivion.

The problem was more in the way that you improve those skills, by running and jumping. I don't imagine there is anyone who while traversing Tameriel would hit the caps lock button to stop running and instead walk around slowly. On the contrary, I think everyone would naturally run as fast as they could to get to wherever it is they wanted to go.

Unless of course, they wanted to improve their Acrobatics skill, in which case you had no choice but to hop everywhere like a bunny.
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lauren cleaves
 
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Post » Wed Mar 30, 2011 1:05 pm

Its in the lore, been in all the games. The Devs knew what they were doing. I say it so much because its true. I dont want to go down the "Do you even know, or even payed a TES" route, but its starting to turn into that. Its lore, its canon, its in the games and everything else. If you dont like it, dont use it. Ive given a way to fix it so people that dont like it, will never see it. If your still against it, then your against how TES/Mundus works.


Lore didn't name athletics and acrobatics as skills.

@gpstr At this point I'm wondering why your still a fan of TES if your so unhappy with Oblivion and Skyrim. It seems your already have the mindset that Skyrim is bad, why buy it at all then? That's just my thoughts on it because it seems you hate anything and everything Skyrim (and Oblivion).
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Daramis McGee
 
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Post » Wed Mar 30, 2011 9:56 am

Lore didn't name athletics and acrobatics as skills.

@gpstr At this point I'm wondering why your still a fan of TES if your so unhappy with Oblivion and Skyrim. It seems your already have the mindset that Skyrim is bad, why buy it at all then? That's just my thoughts on it because it seems you hate anything and everything Skyrim (and Oblivion).





Its Unrealistic.......

Didn't make sense.




etc etc yeah so are talking lizards, cats, orcs, etc etc etc.




Ever heard about Ida Vlinnorman, she likes to climb chapels just so that she can jump off!

Oh, and if I were a theif making a successful hiest but the town guard are on alert, I'd pick the roofs rather than the streets



"Well, well. You interested in Acrobatics training? You'd be quite a challenge. I'm Ida Vlinorman"
Oblivion





This is "natural evolution". Nothing more. Nothing else.



Prime example of hearing Todd say something, and then repeating it.
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Naomi Lastname
 
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Post » Wed Mar 30, 2011 1:08 pm

Its Unrealistic.......

Didn't make sense.




etc etc yeah so are talking lizards, cats, orcs, etc etc etc.




Ever heard about Ida Vlinnorman, she likes to climb chapels just so that she can jump off!

Oh, and if I were a theif making a successful hiest but the town guard are on alert, I'd pick the roofs rather than the streets



Oblivion

Didn't you post this already?
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CYCO JO-NATE
 
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Post » Tue Mar 29, 2011 11:15 pm

Lore didn't name athletics and acrobatics as skills.

No, it explains and mentions the ability to run extremely fast and jump extremely high. Two things that you personally think are 'ridiculous'. which they are not. There was somthing wrong with the system used to level them, not the actual abilities they gave you. The actual abilities that gave you add variety and depth. Whole new gameplay mechanics actually. There are entire places in the game specifically built for the vertically adept.
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Melanie
 
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Post » Wed Mar 30, 2011 3:09 am

Didn't you post this already?



Do you hear me saying the same about you? :P yes I did, I figured sleign missed it because he said Acro and Athle were not mentioned in lore I gave an example.
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sexy zara
 
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Post » Wed Mar 30, 2011 1:26 am

No, it explains and mentions the ability to run extremely fast and jump extremely high. Two things that you personally think are 'ridiculous'. which they are not. There was somthing wrong with the system used to level them, not the actual abilities they gave you. The actual abilities that gave you add variety and depth. Whole new gameplay mechanics actually. There are entire places in the game specifically built for the vertically adept.


@MK- Even fantasy worlds are bound by laws of reality and someone in full heavy armor running faster than a horse isn't realistic. There are some things that say "This person was a legendary runner" or "this person could jump really high" but all of them tend to come out that they have magical enchanted items. Like Springheel Jack for example. As for the "She climbs things to jump off of them", not jumping up on top of a chapel.
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rheanna bruining
 
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Post » Wed Mar 30, 2011 12:19 pm

I've noticed you've made this point before, xarnac. I disagree. I think the devs of TES always to make as 'realistic' (maybe believable is a better word) a game as possible. while i am hopeful that perks and whatnot will make it possible to jump farther and higher, i would not be surprised or upset if we cant jump from the road, let's say, to the roof of a house.



Its in the lore, been in all the games. The Devs knew what they were doing. I say it so much because its true. I dont want to go down the "Do you even know, or even payed a TES" route, but its starting to turn into that. Its lore, its canon, its in the games and everything else. If you dont like it, dont use it. Ive given a way to fix it so people that dont like it, will never see it. If your still against it, then your against how TES/Mundus works.We all know what everybody is going to say, so Im out. Peace!


maybe you're right. i definitely do not know much about the lore of the games. i just think that more fantastical feats of strength should only be possible through the use of magic or enchanted items, as suggested before on this thread. it seems silly to me that by physical training alone i can jump 20 feet in the air. all the gladiators in the imperial arena then should be able to do the same.
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Amiee Kent
 
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Post » Wed Mar 30, 2011 12:21 pm

Meh, I went over the trailer beginning three times and it looks pretty close to the same speed as normal run speed in Oblivion to me, just from the speed you passed the trees and the view of the dovahkiin running to the cliff edge. It definitely looks more natural than in Oblivion though lol.

Todd said that everything they did was still in the game, I would think that would be confirmation, just because they didn't say how, it doesn't mean it wasn't confirmed.


I think the 1st person view look faster to me than the other 3rd person but who knows, music, quick cuts,etc can all scew are perceptions. But even if I had not see that it would just make sense for sprint to be quite fast, like it is in all the fps or Two Worlds 2 for an rpg example. But you damn right about how the pc looked while running. I think the better animations will have a major impact on the games visuals that is hard to capture in a quick shots like the trailer had and impossible in screens.
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Jennifer Munroe
 
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Post » Wed Mar 30, 2011 3:07 am

Source on lore?



Dance in the fire V1 and V4
"I think they followed us through the jungle to Vindisi," said Scotti nervously. "There was definitely a group of something jumping along the treetops."

Scotti crawled onto the strongest branch that pointed toward the wet, rocky face of the cliff. It was not a far jump at all. So close, in fact, that he could smell the moisture and feel the coolness of the stone. But it was a jump nevertheless, and in his history as a clerk, he had never before leapt from a tree a hundred feet off the ground to a sheer rock. He pictured in his mind's eye the shadows that had pursued him through the jungle from the heights above. How their legs coiled to spring, how their arms snapped forward in an elegant fluid motion to grasp. He leapt.

His hands grappled for rock, but long thick cords of moss were more accessible. He held hard, but when he tried to plant his feet forward, they slipped up skyward. For a few seconds, he found himself upside down before he managed to pull himself into a more conventional position.


Mystery of Talara

The Black arrow

“I may not join as an archer, maybe I'll join as an acrobat,” she said. “Or maybe as both. I figured that Valenwood would be the place to go to see what I could learn. You've got all those great teachers to imitate in the trees here. Those ape men.”

She coiled up, bracing her left leg before springing forward on her right. In a second, she had leapt across to a neighboring branch. I found it difficult to keep talking to her.

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Darren
 
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Post » Wed Mar 30, 2011 11:10 am

Just as an aside, why are we trying to pin down acrobatics and athletics as existing in the lore?

It's common sense. You get better at running with practice. You get better at jumping with practice. There doesn't need to be a defined lore-reference for that, it can be inferred, and its presence in previous titles is its own confirmation.

Bethesda is just making a game that decides not to portray acrobatics and athletics as directly incrementable via what we understand as a skill within the gameplay system. That's all, whether not considering getting rid of acro/ath is a bad or good thing.
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CSar L
 
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Post » Wed Mar 30, 2011 4:43 am

@MK- Even fantasy worlds are bound by laws of reality and someone in full heavy armor running faster than a horse isn't realistic. There are some things that say "This person was a legendary runner" or "this person could jump really high" but all of them tend to come out that they have magical enchanted items. Like Springheel Jack for example. As for the "She climbs things to jump off of them", not jumping up on top of a chapel.

Again, those laws can and are broken, both naturally and unnaturally. Not to mention they are different laws and these are not humans. a flea can jump up to 200 times its body weight and thats on Earth with Earth limitations. Plenty of tales about Bosmer and Khajiits jumping great distances and being faster than Nedic races. We get it, you dont like it, so dont use it. You want to get rid of somthing because you personally dont like it. Who's the one actually for variety here? go read the books, you ll see. But Im sure you ll try to defend against it by saying that it was only a tall tale or somthing.
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kasia
 
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Post » Wed Mar 30, 2011 10:22 am

Plenty of tales about Bosmer and Khajiits jumping great distances and being faster than Nedic races.

I can tell you a tale of a people who could do those things too... they are called Jedi and they are from a work of fiction.

Books in Nirn can be works of fiction too....

I'm not saying Khajiit and Bosmer shouldn't be a little faster than other races, as they have always had a natural affinity for it, however we shouldn't be able to run and jump like past games IMO.

The decision to not include acrobatics and athletics doesn't necessarily mean we won't be running and jumping like past games, so we'll have to wait and see about that.
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Rudy Paint fingers
 
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Post » Wed Mar 30, 2011 12:58 pm


Books in Nirn can be works of fiction too....


Yeah, until in game mechanics back them up.
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Rob Smith
 
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Post » Wed Mar 30, 2011 5:47 am

I'd imagine there will be a Perk to increase your sprint speed.

So, nah. Not really bothered.


this
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Far'ed K.G.h.m
 
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Post » Wed Mar 30, 2011 7:02 am

There have been so many feats of superhuman acrobatic and athletic ability in the games and in the lore that to say it doesnt belong in TES is quite silly indeed.
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Josh Trembly
 
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Post » Wed Mar 30, 2011 9:56 am

Yeah, until in game mechanics back them up.

Well, in my personal opinion, game mechanics from past games shouldn't decide things for future games.

"moon-jumping" was in Oblivion, but you couldn't grab on and pull yourself up from ledges. IF they add ledge climbing in Skyrim (that's a big if) then moon-jumping is unnecessary . I would MUCH MUCH MUCH rather have no moon jumping with ledge climbing...
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Zosia Cetnar
 
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Post » Tue Mar 29, 2011 11:23 pm

Why do people assume there will be a perk for speed? It's been confirmed for months now that perks are based off skills...

And they took out Acrobatics and Athletics...

So where does that "perk" fall into?
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P PoLlo
 
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Post » Wed Mar 30, 2011 1:58 am

Why do people assume there will be a perk for speed? It's been confirmed for months now that perks are based off skills...

And they took out Acrobatics and Athletics...

So where does that "perk" fall into?



to be honest, this entire discussion is cripplingly stupid, you don't justify removing Athtetics or Acrobatics in a game where its FULL 360 degrees exploration, FO3 was one plane everyone ran at one speed at full health and did not get stronger by jumping, and there were no perks for jumping and running, I don't see why its expected to be in Skyrim....I don't know this whole argument is foolish.
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Juan Suarez
 
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Post » Wed Mar 30, 2011 2:33 am

Dance in the fire V1 and V4
"I think they followed us through the jungle to Vindisi," said Scotti nervously. "There was definitely a group of something jumping along the treetops."

Scotti crawled onto the strongest branch that pointed toward the wet, rocky face of the cliff. It was not a far jump at all. So close, in fact, that he could smell the moisture and feel the coolness of the stone. But it was a jump nevertheless, and in his history as a clerk, he had never before leapt from a tree a hundred feet off the ground to a sheer rock. He pictured in his mind's eye the shadows that had pursued him through the jungle from the heights above. How their legs coiled to spring, how their arms snapped forward in an elegant fluid motion to grasp. He leapt.

His hands grappled for rock, but long thick cords of moss were more accessible. He held hard, but when he tried to plant his feet forward, they slipped up skyward. For a few seconds, he found himself upside down before he managed to pull himself into a more conventional position.


Mystery of Talara

The Black arrow

“I may not join as an archer, maybe I'll join as an acrobat,” she said. “Or maybe as both. I figured that Valenwood would be the place to go to see what I could learn. You've got all those great teachers to imitate in the trees here. Those ape men.”

She coiled up, bracing her left leg before springing forward on her right. In a second, she had leapt across to a neighboring branch. I found it difficult to keep talking to her.



The word acrobat doesn't work to the argument as it doesn't say it have to be a skill, it's a word to describe someone that can do amazing physical feats. It's just a word. That aside that wasn't the main point, the main point was the feats that were unrealistic, which wasn't proven. He jumped down off a cliff because there was nowhere else to go, that's far from a feat that is constantly done by skilled acrobats, it was his only way out and he managed not to get killed. As for the jumping across the trees and jumping into the water from the cliff, those weren't normal people you can play, they were beastly Khajiiti creatures. They can climb and tree with their claws and jump from limb to limb with their nimbleness of a cat. I mean, they were confused for werewolves, so obviously they were fearsomely strong and agile. These are hardly evidence that anyone can do amazing things like jumping really high or running really fast, this is just evidence that a guy had to jump off a cliff and survived a hundred foot fall and that beastly Khajiit can climb trees and that the word "acrobat" exists in Tamriel.

Again, those laws can and are broken, both naturally and unnaturally. Not to mention they are different laws and these are not humans. a flea can jump up to 200 times its body weight and thats on Earth with Earth limitations. Plenty of tales about Bosmer and Khajiits jumping great distances and being faster than Nedic races. We get it, you dont like it, so dont use it. You want to get rid of somthing because you personally dont like it. Who's the one actually for variety here? go read the books, you ll see. But Im sure you ll try to defend against it by saying that it was only a tall tale or somthing.


*sigh* I've said that same thing like 10 times and each time I've said they are bound by the laws of reality of the mythos but the one time I leave out "of the mythos" someone goes "BUT THIS IS NOT REALITY RAWR!" Oh well, my fault for not watching my ass so I don't get torn apart the first time I don't mention the disclaimer phrase. As I said, none of the lore has said any of these incredible, amazing feats you guys said they did. Nothing about people jumping 70 feet in the air or running at 100 mph, especially not without magical items. Everything I've ever read in the game was well within conceivable bounds. Some of the beast races may run faster than humans but not 50 miles and hour or jumping 50 feet.
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Damned_Queen
 
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Post » Wed Mar 30, 2011 11:04 am

Well, in my personal opinion, game mechanics from past games shouldn't decide things for future games.

"moon-jumping" was in Oblivion, but you couldn't grab on and pull yourself up from ledges. IF they add ledge climbing in Skyrim (that's a big if) then moon-jumping is unnecessary . I would MUCH MUCH MUCH rather have no moon jumping with ledge climbing...

No, thats not the same thing at all.
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Jake Easom
 
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Post » Wed Mar 30, 2011 12:22 pm

Why do people assume there will be a perk for speed? It's been confirmed for months now that perks are based off skills...

And they took out Acrobatics and Athletics...

So where does that "perk" fall into?

1. Perks can increase speed, as a secondary consequence to other perks such as through quick-fire marksman perks or fast-slashing dagger perks.
2. Speed can be increased based on the weighted averages of speed-dependent skills, aka skills that used to be governed by the speed attribute.
3. Speed can further be incremented based on a formula of one's level given a fractional weight by that average above.

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Mr. Ray
 
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Post » Tue Mar 29, 2011 11:43 pm

Yeah, until in game mechanics back them up.

They never did. Once you got yer 100 Speed, Athletics, and Acrobatics, a Nord ran and jumped like the best Bosmer.

They ran faster actually, because height was a factor in run speed.
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Jennifer Rose
 
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