But pairing Shotgun with SMG isn't as effective as pairing it with the AR like you can on a Heavy - ARs cover mid-range about equally compared to SMGs, and cover long range better, while the Shotgun wins when the battle gets closer.

Yes but how many times does a medium or light just stay in far range in this game? People are constantly moving in this game. Any player worth their salt might get shot a cpl times at far distance but will sprint or SMART to cover ASAP (unless your a heavy then you basically just get sniped to incap from afar). They will then close the distance on that range shooter or flank them and then you get what most of this games battles are which is medium / close range. At this point its also usually a wild-running hip firing spray n pray and this is where the heavy really loses out. In hip-firing situations the heavy is a bigger / easier target to hit while running around / SMARTing and will absorb more stray bullets then a medium or light will. He also cannot strafe very effectively due to his lack of speed and is therefore easier still to hit while in these close quarters situations.

Believe me I know the heavies strengths and how using dif weps can make them semi-useful but I dont really see its usefulness outdoing the usefulness of a medium or light. It all comes down to the fact that this is a fast paced run n gun game and the heavy cant be fast paced or run n gun as well as a light or medium and the things he is given to counter these weaknesses dont do a good enough job countering them IMO. The day I have a problem mowing down ANY heavy with my medium or light with a SMG or the day that I, as a heavy, can mow down a medium or light with ease using my big guns will be the day they are useful. Unfortunately that day hasn't come.

Then don't use the heavy.

Honestly I think the thing that bothers me the most about these complaints is that it's a collection of people saying that heavies are useless, but when somebody who uses a heavy, uses it effectively, and likes using it comes along and says as much it's dismissed with a quick "yes, but I can do such and such with my light." You being able to use a light or medium with a certain effect does not make the heavy useless, it makes the light or medium a better choice for you.

My friend mops up with his heavy, but can't use a medium nearly as well (and won't even touch the light) because the heavy fits how he plays better.

Maybe you thought your style was "heavy" but the reality was that you always used the heavy guns the way medium weapons are supposed to be used. It happens all the time in games like COD or MAG; LMGs get used like ARs because the player has a "medium" mentality as far as how they move and shoot, but the stats of the gun make it perfectly useable in such a way.

Heavies aren't bullet sponges, this isn't TF2.

Heavies are great when you use them at choke points and objective sites. Their main purpose is to dish out and take punishment. That gattling gun is fierce in the hands of an experienced player. The big guys are great for watching your back while teammates complete objectives. Other than that they can be a bit of a hindrance if they are not used properly in the heat of battle.

I never said the heavy was useless the OP did. I am saying that the heavy isn't as balanced as the other body types are. The heavy lacks ANY maneuverability and speed and this game is pretty much solely about maneuverability and speed. IMO in Brink maneuverability > firepower. The heavy gives up too much and isn't compensated with enough that is where my problem lies. The lights have super maneuverability and speed and can win a gunfight by dodging most shots / strafing if not then they get their squishy bodies filled with lead. The medium has a good balance of being able to take dmg and also being able to strafe well or maneuver around the level well. The heavy gives all that up in exchange for more health (which is offset by their bigger hitbox, a lack of strafing speed, and a lack of ability to seek cover effectively in a firefight) and for heavy weapons (which ATM are pretty comparable to the AR and SMGs). I cant tell you how many times I have SMARTed my way out of sticky situations or almost dying as a light and medium and if i was a heavy the added health and big weps wouldn't have made much of a difference i would have died end of story.

I dont want this to be TF2 and I dont want heavies to be bullet sponges. What I do want is for the heavy to be more balanced in comparison to the other body types. I think a slight buff in the dmg per bullet of heavy weps (talking 1-5 more dmg per shot) would do wonders for the heavies. As it is a heavy is better off with an AR and a SMG and to me I dont wanna play a heavy thats similar to my medium. I want a heavy for the heavy exclusive weapons they have.

I dunno man...99% of the time I use a medium body type. Unless my gun is buffed, I find it frustrating when I see a couple of heavies in my path. I'll empty a whole clip into them sometimes and they still don't go down. They don't have an insane amount of health and they are easy targets because if their size and lack of mobility, but when I have half a clip left and see a heavy...I know my chances aren't good, since those 15 rounds aren't always gonna take him out.

However, I do agree that the heavies could use a little more toughness and more fear factor. I don't know if anyone else played through the spec ops missions in COD MW2: But whenever you hear those juggernauts coming after you, it always gives me this feeling of doom and dread. That's the feeling I want to get when I see a heavy and other than it taking more rounds and sometimes a reload to kill them, I'm not really scared to face them.

You're ignoring that you now have two people saying that while YOUR anolysis of the stats may tell YOU that a Heavy isn't as good, and while YOUR experience trying to use a Heavy supports YOUR opinion, there are other players who can play BETTER as a Heavy than as a Light or Medium.

Just because YOU can't do the body type justice, doesn't mean it's unbalanced. Just means you're not as good with it as someone who can.

I'm better with a Light, for the record, but when I have used the Heavy online, I took a Chinzor and I was lethal. i die more often as a Light, but I get more done as well. I've seen a couple of heavy players online who do it justice, and they're tough opponents and valuable teammates, and trying to keep up with their scores is a good challenge.

Maybe the heavies should have access to more heavy weapons. Like a RPG launcher that can hold up to 4 homing missles (but not fired all at once), A flame thrower, A hugh battle shield accompanied with a battle ax for leading team mates thru corridors and choke points. Their melee attacks should be fatal as well...except to other heavies.

Just some thoughts.

I think we're starting to lose sight of what this topic is about here...

Can someone use a heavy effectively? Sure, I guess so. But when compared to other body types, the heavy is pointless: the heavy weapons are lackluster, slower movement speed is infuriating, inability to mantle/reach certain places or objects forces you into death-trap choke points, and the health bonus is negligible. What this mean is that someone could use a medium/light equally as effective as a heavy, meaning that there is no point in choosing it.

Saying that "Just because YOU can't do the body type justice, doesn't mean it's unbalanced. Just means you're not as good with it as someone who can." is a fallacy. A medium can fill exactly the same role as a heavy on the front lines. If both a heavy and a medium take ARs to the thick of battle they will have the exact same combat effectiveness, if not leaning more towards medium because of the increased mobility. If a heavy takes an HMG they are literally handicapping themselves because, from 50 hours of experience, I can tell you that the heavy weapons' (which do, on average, 6 damage less than the ARs) increased ammo count does not outweigh the increased recoil.

I can guarantee that if you played a game as a light in the same fashion as a heavy, you will do just as good if not better than if you played it as an actual heavy.

The Heavy needs to be a complete bullet sponge compared to the light body type. Think Boomers or Supermutant overlords. well maybe not an overlord but it has to be a bullet sponge. I also think the heavy should have a flamethrower, at CQC most of the heavies weapons are weak at close range and need a signature weapon.

For the record when I upgrade the health command post and get a health dub boost it only give me 3 extra bars of health not 4 and even though i have that extra health bonus i still get mowed down like it was nothing.

I never said you said heavies are useless, I told you not to use a heavy if you thought the other options were better. Everything else was directed at the collection of complaints.

In your opinion movement is better than firepower in Brink, but it's that basic idea that is causing many of the complaints. Everybody is looking at everything with a very black and white "this is better than that" view, when the reality is that there isn't anything that simple in this game. Everything plays differently whether it be bodytype, class, weapon, faction, or the player's abilities and style. In certain situations the heavy will win 9 out of 10, in others the light will. A team that makes the most of these and works as a team on the field is going to walk over a team that doesn't. The heavy is batting cleanup, his team loads the bases and he finishes with a homerun.

The heavy gives up speed and the ability to take shortcuts, he can still strafe and run and jump, just at a much slower speed. His body hitbox is a bit larger, but not so much that it isn't countered by the health increase, and his head hitbox is only a fraction larger than either lights or mediums. And his weapons do a great deal that can't be done with ARs or SMGs (just ask all the guys I've buried), but he also has access to double ARs or an AR and a shotgun or a chaingun and an AR.

The light gives up weapon selection and HPs to be able to take shortcuts and move faster.

If you're the kind of guy that likes to strafe while fighting don't take a heavy, if you're the kind of guy that likes to amble up spraying the enemy with hot lead while your teammates bounce around you take a heavy.

The idea isn't that a heavy should win in a fight over a light everytime. The idea is that a player who plays like a heavy gets some advantage for playing that way and a light who plays like a light gets an advantage for playing his way, and Brink accomplishes that.

I'm not talking about stats. I'm talking about the FACT that the heavy doesn't have maneuverability in a game where maneuverability is king. Now it may be my opinion that the heavies lack of maneuverability isn't offset well enough with extra health and heavy weps but I state good reasons for my opinion. It is a FACT that heavies are bigger hit boxes and are therefore going to be easier to hit. It is a FACT that heavies cannot strafe well while firing and aren't fast. It is a FACT that heavies cannot use SMART well enough to flank or get our of sticky situations. Now it may be my opinion that the heavy weps are on par with an SMG with a drum clip. And it may be my opinion that heavy weps usually lose out to SMGs. But these two opinions come from both WATCHING myself and others own MOST heavies with an SMG because they must stand there with their massive selves. And it also comes from WATCHING myself get killed as a heavy by mediums and lights running around me with their SMGs even if i have a buffed and spooled up gotlung.

I wouldn't say that im better with any particular body type then any other. I have played them all extensively and am pretty good at all of them. However, each one (bar the heavy) has felt like it has struck the balance that SD was looking for. I and others can go out with a heavy and do pretty well but the heavy doesn't FEEL like it has the same balance as the others do. If heavies were balanced then you should see a decent amount of them in any game. You should also see a good spread of them in the game battles / serious games. But you dont. I'm not saying the heavy is completely useless and has no redeeming qualities, I'm just saying it doesn't seem as balanced as the rest in a game where if you want to live "you must constantly be running."

If I take a Medium body, and try to fight the way I do as a Heavy, I guarantee you I would be slaughtered. When I do it as a Heavy, it works.

People who are good as Heavies CAN'T do the same with a Medium.

What I said isn't a fallacy, you're misinterpreting it completely.

"Slow movement speed is infuriating" FOR YOU. But NOT for someone who can adapt to it effectively. The health bonus seems "negligible" TO YOU, because it isn't huge, and with the way YOU try playing a Heavy, you'd need it to be. That doesn't match my experience when going up against someone who's good at playing as a Heavy, and I'm far from being the only one to support their value in the game.

Just because you've put 50 hours into the game, doesn't mean you're good at playing AS A HEAVY. Even if you've spent 50 hours as a Heavy, you could still svck at it. My girlfriend's brother has played about 100 hours combined of Assassin's Creed 2 and Brotherhood and it's still painful to see how bad he is at them.

You can stop presenting one-sided evidence based on personal experience and claiming it's a valid counter to someone else's personal experience which proves you WRONG now.

EDIT: If I can boil your next argument down to "But it doesn't work when I do it, so you must be lying," I'm to edit your quote to more clearly state your point. K? Good.

The health increase over a light is 60 - on average, 3 bullets for SMGs, 2 for ARs. At 909 RPM for SMGs, this really is milliseconds.
The health increase over a medium is 40 - on average, 2 bullets for SMGs AND ARs.

HMGs do an average of 6 damage less than ARs and 6 damage more than SMGs. What that means is that, to kill an unbuffed medium with an HMG you will need an average of 6 bullets. To kill an unbuffed medium with an SMG takes an average of 7 bullets. To kill an unbuffed medium with an AR takes an average of 5 bullets.

To kill an unbuffed heavy with an HMG you will need an average of 8 bullets. To kill an unbuffed heavy with an SMG takes an average of 9 bullets. To kill an unbuffed heavy with an AR takes an average of 7 bullets.

Two more bullets to take down a heavy is not a reasonable trade off for larger hitboxes and slower movement.

You're right, the idea isn't that a heavy should always win in a fight over a light. But a heavy should be able to kill a light some of the time.

Evidence is, by definition, one sided. When I say that, on average, HMGs do less damage than ARs, that's a fact. You can't interpret that any other way.

When I say that SMGs fire more bullets more accurately in the same amount of time as an HMG while doing comparable damage, that's a fact.

Perhaps I shouldn't have used the word "infuriating". More accurately, the slower speed is detrimental, to both yourself and your team as a whole. Until you reach combat as a heavy you aren't helping your team kill the enemy. If they outnumber your teammates, it is more likely that your team will lose that battle.

You're confusing my anecdote with evidence. I used a story of personal experience to bring to light the fact that heavy bodies don't fill any sort of useful combat role.

The Heavy's weaknesses are apparent. However, the perks tha tthe body type is supposed to have aren't. The weapons available only to them are less effective than weapons which can be accessed by all body types. My Heavy character currentlty struts a Bulpdaun SMG because I am much better at getting kills with it than with one of the silly heavy weapons. Also, when you're getting hit by fully-automatic machine gun fire, being able to take one or two more bullets doesn't make any difference. If anything, the Heavy has the lowest survivability because it moves like a tunnel boaring machine and is such a wide target.

When I confront a Heavy with my Light, I figure I could pump half a clip of Bulpdaun rounds into his immobile chest before he can wind up his peashooter or fire enough bursts from his Chinzor to take me out at any range other than close. I should be intimidated and pressed to wait for back up or take another route. The Heavy needs a nice, big health increase, and some alterations for those weapons.

My friend can't use a medium/light as effectively as he uses his heavy. He uses his heavy quite effectively and can't do a thing with his light or medium. I can't use my light the way I use my heavy, but I'll crush the enemy either way. Your failings in the game are not signs of a failing of the game.




It is a fact that the heavy does not have the same maneuverability as others in a game where, in your opinion, maneuverability is king. A guy who plays shooters in the run and gun style isn't going to want a heavy, a guy who plays in a more tactical mindset might.

So in your opinion, after 50 hours of play, the heavy lacks the balanced feeling that the developer was going for and spent three years trying to achieve? Perhaps you should ask yourself if it's possible that you've misinterpreted that "balance" or how the heavy works within it.

And what you see in competetive games is a product of the players you watch. If a player feels he plays better with a fast moving, high flying light he's going to regardless of whether or not the heavy is well balanced because it doesn't fit his style of play. He's going to stick with what he knows, and coming from other games where either heavy weapons can be used by anybody or the heavy is designed as a bullet sponge, he is going to have to change to play a heavy in Brink.

Against bots or actual players? There is a huge difference between the two.

EDIT: For the record, SD designed Brink for competitive play. Every tournament I have seen does not have a single Heavy included in it. That has to mean something.

LOL. I've never been killed by the mini-gun in a shootout. They have to get me from behind to have a chance, and even then I still come out on top 9 out of ten times.

The OP should have been:
"Heavy body type has absolutely zero significant advantages over the other two body types, while it has countless serious disadvantages."
/thread


It's not even just that I find the heavy body to be an easy kill. It's so bad that when I'm shooting at a light guy, I often find myself thinking, "how many bullets is the freaking skeleton gonna shrug off?" Simply, because I'm comparing them to the Heavy, which really has no noticeable advantage in health when I stomp them.

I wouldn't call the body type useless, but it's definitely not a game changer against experienced players. In fact, for skilled players, heavys are often the easiest prey to deal with.

Yes, the health increase over a light is 60, an entire half of a light's life, and those 3 bullets are an eternity if they never come. The problem with using basic stats as the argument is that those stats only matter in the "perfect" one on one encounter. That's not what the game is about, and more specifically not how the heavy fits into the game.

And again, if you can't kill a light as a heavy then you either need more work as a heavy or you should just forget they exist.




Either. There's a tactical change involved as far as where to go and whether or not to run, but the weapon and bodtype handle the same either way.

Interesting as I find that Heavy weapons are quite inferior against players since they tend not to bunch up like the bots.

60 more hp, but also about 100% bigger hitbox then light, not to mention you get seen before you round corners, which again is a huge disadvantage.

Heavies are effective against bots because of the ammo theyr weapons hold, but thats about it.

LOL. Ever had four real players flanked and lined up perfectly with your minigun/MG, just to have them all slide/jump/climb/sidestep to evade your fire and maul you before you could even drop a single one????
It's not LOL funny because of you getting owned by them, but funny because when you have a Kross with an extended clip or drum in that same situation... you're making sure to bleed out their four floored bodies 5 seconds later before they self-revive/downed-fire/cortex-bomb you. The difference in control and DPS for those weapons is that freaking vast.

Heavy Engineer/Operative Here.

I have to STRONGLY DISAGREE. I ran with a team of heavies the night before last. It was ridiculous how unprepared the other team was in competitive mode. By time they finished a clip we would have at least two people up still mowing people down.

I personally love being a heavy operative. First, most people don't expect it, 2nd when I get behind enemy line...BEWARE. I can mow down an entire team without letting go of my Trigger. Yes I have some spray and inaccuracy, but by the time the team turns around I have mowed down 1-3 people. As an engineer, I can also absorb more damage while repairing or disarming items, so if the shots are not well placed.... I can make it out with just a sliver of health others would not have.

LOL. I hate getting shot before I could even get my sight around a corner. It's one of the main reasons why I now use the medium for any heavy-type gameplay. HOW THE HELL ARE YOU SUPPOSED TO DEAL WITH GETTING SHOT BEFORE YOU CAN SHOOT OUT OF COVER??? It makes walking the maintenance bot too frustrating.