As the title suggests, I find heavy bodies to be useless.

Before Brink was released, I was raring to be a heavy. I always like to be the tank, and so the idea of being able to soak up and dish out massive amounts of damage was incredibly appealing. As soon as I hit level 5, I made my medium Medic heavy and stuck with him until level 20. At the time, I didn't see the need to switch to a light or medium - with my patented Maximus/Rhett combo I felt I was incredibly deadly.

Throughout my 15 levels of heavy gameplay I thought I was incredibly helpful to my team, as often I'd take down 4 or 5 guys in a mob with my Maximus, effectively ending a charge. There were also times where I escaped a firefight with barely a sliver of health left and thought to myself, "Thank God I'm a heavy, I wouldn't have survived otherwise!"

The slower movement speed and inability to access certain routes didn't deter or concern me. I was always able to get into the thick of combat only a couple seconds after my teammates, and would help mop up the rest of what remained of the enemy team with my Maximus. If anyone tried to run away I'd switch to my COGA-equipped Rhett and take them out. I'd like to think that in many circumstances my Maximus is what tipped the balance to our favour.

The truth is, however, it wasn't.

The first of many problems is that, as a heavy, I was restricted as to where I could go. More often than not, the only route a heavy could take is the route that leads directly into a choke point. For instance, on the first objective on Container City, a heavy simply can't flank the enemy. The jump that lets mediums/lights go to the right of the gate (from the point of view of Security) was always out of reach, and the side door is just as useless as the hole under the gate for mounting a reliable offence. Very often I would end up shooting guys that strayed past the main gate with my Maximus, thinking that by killing them I was helping my team.

I wasn't.

In reality, the people who were stupid enough to get killed by me weren't going to help their team in the first place. The hole under the gate is a death-trap; anyone stupid enough to slide under there in an attempt to defuse the HE charge deserves to get killed dead. That leaves only the medium/light only exit above the side door or the jump down on the right of the gate. Because I couldn't go either way, I focused all my attention on the gate - this was a mistake. Only idiots go under the gate, like I said, so they weren't a threat to the team as a whole. What that meant for my team was that they had one less gun pointed at the enemy, and if they vaulted over either side of the gate I was unprepared. I just couldn't be aware of what was happening, because I couldn't see anything important that was happening.

Technically, I could guard the HE charge as it counted down, but as a heavy you have to make a commitment to a spot to shoot from; since you can't get from point A to point B in combat without getting shot to death because you're slow and gigantic you are confined to a spot that is easily "defensible". I put that in quotations because there simply isn't something like that. Because of the crazy recoil on heavy weapons, you have to fire in bursts which completely defeats the purpose of heavy machine guns. The recoil starts after just a few shots, but the recoils on SMGs are much less than the machine guns, and SMGs output comparable, if not superior, DPS than HMGs. At long range SMGs are more reliable weapons than HMGs because recoil is so much easier to control. Coupled with faster reload speed and firing rate, SMGs often spit out more bullets per minute than my 112-round Maximus. Almost unbelievably, they also have more bullets than me. What this means is that I either had to stand close enough to the gate for my aim to be reliable, and in the act make myself an easier target that is easily flanked; or stand far away from the gate so that I couldn't be flanked, but couldn't reliably kill anyone.

Since I was unable to vault over either of these obstacles, I had to wait for the gate to blow before I actually became useful. If my teammates went either way I would be unable to revive them if they went down or give them ammo when they were out. Basically it was like I wasn't there.

On maps that are much more enclosed, such as Aquarium, I was equally useless. Because they're so enclosed the crazy recoil isn't as glaring an issue; it's still there, but because enemies are generally larger on-screen while they're more likely to be closer it is much easier to manage. However, at close range, SMGs outshine HMGs in every aspect. The Gotlung is rendered useless by way of its spin-up time - in close-quarters this will get you killed. The Maximus does have better base damage than all of the SMGs, but a higher rate of fire is much more important than base damage when differences aren't large. The Chinzor has the same rate of fire as the SMGs but has equal damage, so you might as well use an SMG and have more accuracy and less recoil. With an SMG drum, the 150 round capacity of the Chinzor is also just not that big of an advantage. What this meant was that I just wasn’t as good as I could’ve been.
In close quarters switching to the Hjammerdeim might seem like a good move. However, because heavies are just so damn slow, getting into a good position to use it effectively is too hard to make it viable. The EZ- Nade fills a niche, but it is so rarely useful that you’re better off just flanking the enemy and unloading into them with an SMG.
Well those are my thoughts. If you disagree, please comment, I’d be happy to discuss with you and see why you feel differently.

Well written observation. I too was attracted to the heavy body type at first -- I am a skilled player at whatever FPS I choose to play, and I love leading the pushes. Whether it be through actually being the first guy through and up in front, or killing 4-5 enemies and simply opening up the map for my team to advance.

I find that the heavy is obviously a bullet magnet in regards to his physical size. This disadvantage is further accentuated by his slow movement speed and inability to navigate the map. In this particular game thye paid close attention to the map details as far as mantling and flanking go, as to totally cut off the heavy body type from such locations and options -- as you pointed out in your OP. The heavy body type's only real option is straight up the middle on most maps.

Your anolysis of the mini-gun is spot on, as it is rendered useless in close quarters situations (where it probably should win hands down), and is only really useful when nobody is shooting at you. I can see it as a good support option but requires the very best coordination and team effort (which unfortunately is simply not viable in most pubs). While a mini-gun can be useful as a support weapon, it falls into a niche just like the EZ-Nade (not quite as much but still) and is trumped by any simple SMG.

The Chinzor is the only real option for a heavy IMO -- but as you pointed out, it feels like a big fat SMG for a big fat heavy body type. So you may as well just go medium/light and grab a SMG because the HMG/Mini-gun just simply do not have the benefit you'd expect. (Especially when you can just pop a drum mag on an SMG and be done with it)

SMG damage is lower than the HMG's, sure -- but not low enough to justify the movement penalty associated with the heavy body type.

TL:DR -- OP is absolutely right, and this seems to me like a logical and correct educated opinion.

P.S. I've been playing PC games since as far back as I can remember. I started with Quake and really started big on TFC. IMO, some of these maps are of the worst design I have ever seen in an objective based game. Container City is an absolute disaster of map design (especially at the beginning), and I cringe when people start voting for it.

The only maps I enjoy in this game are Security Tower and Resort -- but even then, the choke points are unbearable. I realize there is a huge dependance in this game on team coordination -- but this game hasn't even realized a proper community (and I don't think it will), so mostly what we have are pubs.

I really think this game is a piece of sh*t to be honest, but I like(d) Splash Damage and I really want this game to do well -- but the only thign that is going to help it at all is some HEAVY fixing and some GOOD maps.

Heavies aren't supposed to flank, that's the job of lights and a little bit of mediums.
Heavies SHOULD be the front line of the attack, taking the most damage and dealing the most damage.

I understand the concern, because it would be useful to have a route for the heavies to flank out the enemy from the side pounding them. Even though people say that CCity's side door is useless, I think you may have found a use for it using a heavy...

I really don't know, I feel that heavies are fine the way they are, but then again, I understand the issue that you're bringing forth :\

I just use heavy for my heavy soldier. Not that much of a help. But so much fun keeping down a whole team with my mini-gun.

I agree, heavies aren't supposed to flank -- but in this game, their only other option is into a choke point. That said, choke points are instant death, even to heavies. The Heavy Body type's really don't take much extra damage -- if any at all. I honestly think that heavies should be able to mantle up the same heights as mediums, but be limited to that and not be able to get to the higher sniping areas and such.

I think the movement speed is more than enough of a penalty as it is, and defending teams really need something to be afraid of.

Just slow down the bloom on miniguns, give a bit more health.

Hmmmm... True...

I really don't know, I see the issue that is put forth, it just doesn't bother me all that much :\
I just have really low standards for games ._.

But again, I do agree that heavies aren't that... 'heavy'.

I dunno, all I see when I see a heavy is a big fat bastard that's easier to hit than everyone else. They seem to go down just as fast as the medium/lights, and are larger targets. They are really not any more of a threat than anyone else, and possibly less of a threat due to their inherent weaknesses.

90% of the time I play as a medium, and if a heavy runs up on me I don't even flinch; I can just open up on him most of the time with my AR or SMG before he even winds up his minigun. The rest of the time, the heavies don't even manage to get into the fight because their slow fat asses get picked off before they even get halfway there.

Heavies are underestimated. If you do it well one is perfect, but you have to accept the role.

Don't take that the wrong way, by your post I can tell that you're probably the exact type of player that has. Let me tell you, that as a Light, there have been loads of times I've been happy to see a Heavy up on the line with me because I know they can tank while I deal damage (with them, obviously) they really are the best Support you can ask for. I feel bad when my Heavy buddy dies just like Bioshock. Their weapons are obviously designed for mass group damage and their speed means they'll always be behind me, which is where I would have them as I run about mopping up the mess as they all hide from the HMG fire.

My next Character is a Heavy to drop back and be a bit less of a hero.

I thank Heavies. They're not useless to me, I'm sorry they feel useless to themselves.

Big time Heavy player here. Against bots the Heavy is a force to be reckoned with. Against other players they are simply a bigger target.

The problem with the Heavy is not their health but their arsenal. In matches against other players the Heavy's weapons offer zero benefit over a Medium's or even a Light's. All of the Heavy weapons need to be improved save the AGL. When a CARB-9 with a front grip and drum mag can deal more consistant damage than a Maximus with a muzzle break you know that there is a problem.

If you can't heavy, don't. I know several people that always get 'Most Kills' award when they go heavy. I'm getting REAL tired of nubs saying "i suc buff wat i do cuz im 2 nub 2 do it nao!!11". It would have been FAR easier to come here and write a post asking for help. It would be better to find someone who can play the class and politely ask them for advice. The worst possible thing you could have done is come to these forums and start whining about the tools you're using because you can't play the game the way you want.

@Grinmak the Barbarian:

actually you can flank the enemies in Container City as an heavy, as soon as an operative has opened the shortcut, which is up the left handed Stair (related to the gate). Don't rely on the AI (or teammates for that matter) to do so, so switch to operative, run past the gate, up the stairs, hack the door and have a "flank feast" :gun:
*edit*:actually you don't even need to hack the door, because there is a window before the door, but your view there is rather limited. great for snipers though.
there are shortcuts on other maps, too, but they have to be either opened by operative or installed by engineer or blown away (not the shortcut, but any obstacle) by soldiers. I think, that even an heavy character could do most of this.
Nevertheless, there will still be some aras off limit for heavy, but there is always a possibility for them to flank....

Heavies are awesome..my 8 year old son can cut down wave after wave of enemies at a choke point with his heavy engineer and his gotlung gun, a turett gun set up and plant a couple land mines lol i watched him do it for 12 minutes holding back the security in the Aquarium.

Wall of text, whoah... I skimmed but got the gist. Seems to me like you weren't playing the wall of flesh and bone with a big-ass gun the way the wall of flesh and bone with a big-ass gun is supposed to be played... or you were, but you weren't enjoying it. A heavy enemy has killed me many times, especially if I'm out-numbered. The extra bullet or two it takes to kill CAN make a difference.

Heck, the Heavy may be statistically useless. But this is a game, the point of a game is to have fun, and playing Heavy is fun.

Spawntrapping - Takes so little skill, even 8 year olds can do it.

Amirite? :blink:



Given all the health-buffs and boosts and whatnots each bodytype can get, Heavies are often rendered more useless than they are in the Competition-Ruleset. Perhaps only they should be allowed to receive double-boosts from CPs, Medics and Engineers.

I just don't quake with fear when I see a heavy in Brink as much as I feel I should, or as much as I do on TF2. In my opinion it is not used often enough (even by myself), but whether this is because of it's shortcomings (or mine) I'm not sure.

When I first see a Heavy, while playing as a Light (which I usually do), my first thought is, "Oh good, a real threat" - after the fight, I either remember that name and character model as "oh $#&%!" or "target practice" for next time.

@Fragasm

Thanks for your reply!

@ArchAngelix

Perhaps you're right that heavies aren't supposed to flank, but their prowess as a front-line combatant is lacking. Their large size makes it harder to find reliable cover and the insane recoil makes it unnecessarily hard to kill a fast-moving light. The fact that most SMGs have half the spread of any of the HMGs means that I was more easy to kill because I am forced to remain stationary to be of any usefulness in combat, while lights are free to run, jump and slide to their hearts content.

@Nick1021

Improving one weapon does not solve the root of the problem. It is always a better idea to flank the enemy than meet them head-on, especially since lackluster weapons and a neglible health advantage make heavies less useful in almost every instance than a light.

@OptiMAT

While it's good that you can appreciate a heavy, a light with 90 SMG rounds is just as effective at suppression (as well as raw stopping power) as a heavy, with increased movement. Plus, multiple health boosts also go a long way to making a light less light and more heavy in terms of damage resistance.

The heavy's increased health really doesn't do them any good either. In combat, their health provides literally only hundredths of a second more survival time. Obviously, when under fire the best idea is to seek cover; however, a slow heavy can't get to cover as fast or as reliably as a light/medium.

@Sucellus

I spent a lot of time and put a lot of thought behind my reasons as to why the heavy is useless when compared with the other body types. From your response it is clear that you saw the topic title and assumed I was a bad player who didn't know what I was talking about, and so you resorted to calling me names.

I ask that you read the OP, as well this post before you comment again. You have contributed nothing to what I wanted to be a frank and civil discussion.

@@Super Pangolin

I ask that you do read the entire post.

However, I will address what you said. While you (and most people) might think that a heavy is meant to be a huge wall of gun, in practice this just doesn't work. As stated before, heavies don't survive any longer under direct fire than the other body types, so using them as a battering ram won't work. They die just as quickly as a light/medium except they're easier to hit.

After extensive play with all there body types I sadly must agree. There is nothing that a heavy can do that a medium cant do better. As stated you are pretty much a bigger and immobile (while using heavy weps) target that has barely more health then a medium and a lot less maneuverability then a light or a medium. Also as stated the heavy weps dont really provide you with an advantage over a SMG or AR. Even a heavy with a spooled up buffed gotlung will get owned by a medium or light with a carb9 smg more times then he will kill them (I have killed heavies and been killed as a heavy many times in this situation). This is because the heavy is just standing there with his bigger hit box while the lights and mediums sprint, slide, and wall hop around while still firing. I often find myself wanting to use an AR and SMG as a heavy which, to me at least, defeats half the purpose of being a heavy (the other half being more health).

As has been previously stated by a cpl people on here when most people see a heavy they think "look at that big and slow hit box with a pee shooter that has to be spooled up. Im gonna sprint over to him and fill him with lead before he can even turn around and even if he does see me good luck hitting me cause I will just run circles around him." Instead of what the heavy should make people think which is "oh cr@p there's a heavy I either need to take another route or wait for backup."

As it is I must once again say that anything a heavy can do a medium can do better. If you doubt me switch your heavies to a medium with a Gerund AR (or whatever you prefer) with a grip and drum mag and a SMG as a backup. See the world of difference because you can actually avoid fire and take alternate routes and still be able to put out more DPS then you could as a heavy

As I already said, you need to be good AT A PARTICULAR PLAYSTYLE to be good as a Heavy.

Instead of taking a Heavy weapon if you aren't good with them, you can take the trusty AR/Shotty combo, or AR/Lobster, and fill a particularly important role in combat better than any other body type does.

The main problem is people expecting their "tank" characters to handle like a Rambo character and be indestructible - that's not the point. Adding 2 - 3 Heavies to a large firefight isn't going to necessarily benefit any individual greatly, but those extra couple of bullets the enemy needs to put into each of them will give THE WHOLE TEAM a little extra survivability in the larger firefights that brink tends to provide - you know? Those ones where it's all-in, with flanking attacks and direct charges simultaneously, and some sneaky Operatives or nimble Lights from the defending team appearing from behind enemy lines to add to the "WTF?" nature of the battle... Yeah, in those moments, when the bullets finally stop, and your team has 2 - 3 men standing, you'll be glad you brought Heavies to the fight.

I wouldn't mind the heavy getting some form of a buff. Maybe not a health buff, but some buffs towards there weapons. Make each bullet their guns fire deal more damage.

I can see your point but also disagree. The amount of extra survivability that a heavy has with that extra 20 health is negated by the fact that 1. Hes a bigger target and therefore easier to hit while spraying and 2. He cannot move quickly, slide, or wall hop WHILE shooting while mediums and lights can. And why take a heavy with a AR/shotty or AR/ losbter when you can take a medium with those same weapons and also have more survivability then a heavy has (being able to run n gun and slide behind cover effectively > extra 20 health IMHO).

I have played extensively with a heavy (I have a lvl 20 heavy-only soldier / medic that i just turned to a medic / engy) and the pros dont outweigh the cons as well as the other body types do. I love the heavy weapons and and quite good at using them in their prospective roles but they are all pretty much lesser versions of the AR and SMGs. I think that a slight damage buff to each of the heavy weps (im talking like 3- 5 more dmg per bullet) would make the heavy more balanced compared to the other body types.

As I said switch any heavy setup you have to a medium and they will be that much better in thier role. Brink is about constantly being on the run and gunning while the heavy goes against that completely and should be buffed for it IMHO.

Both 1 and 2 are almost completely negated (not quite, but almost) in confined spaces where a lot of players have congregated.

And a Medium CAN'T take two ARs, and CAN'T take AR/Shotgun TOGETHER, or AR/GL TOGETHER, but a Heavy can. THAT was what I was getting at there, not saying to only take ONE of those weapons paired with a secondary a Medium could carry just as easily. Being able to swap from your AR, which is able to outperform SMGs are mid - long range when you use it right, and pull out a Mossington, which outperforms SMGs in close-quarters when used right, is a pretty big advantage over a Medium. Emphasis on the "USING IT RIGHT" part here though - if you play to your strengths, instead of letting your enemy play to your weaknesses, you come out on top.

A Heavy's strengths are best-used when supporting and supported by teammates.

I think every class is better when supported by teammates but why is the heavy the ONLY class that MUST be supported by teammates while the other two dont? I guess I have more of a problem with the heavy because you cant switch your character between games. IMHO a heavy is pretty useless on offense and way better on defense. Or like you said is better in CQC levels then open levels. But once again I dont see the point in using a heavy just because he can use two medium guns. An AR / GL combo or AR / mossington combo is almost the same as a SMG / GL combo or shotty / smg combo on a medium because the medium can close the distance / take cover better then a heavy can. A shotty may be able to take people out effectively at close range (really close) but it is very infective at any other range while a SMG is good in close/ medium range and can even be used (although not very effectively) at far range. When I made my heavy a medium for a bit I ran with the lobster GL and Carb9 with a red dot, grip, muzzle break, and drum mag. The carb 9 with this setup is basically a slightly nerfed AR in terms of range but still was very effective at some decent ranges.

This game was made to be where if you want to survive you should be "constantly moving" and always run and gunning but the heavy cant do that at all. To me every body type except for the heavy has its balance pretty well figured out. If the body types were all even then there would be a even spread of all classes killing all classes and as it is it seems like all classes kill the heavy easier. Whenever I play my heavy I feel like I am taking a handicap quite honestly and feel 100x better about a win because I know I fought hard to get it with this huge, bulky, slow, no shortcut using, barely useful heavy-weapon-having, mofo lol.

I have 3 Heavies ranging from level 12 to level 17.

The Cons
Can't get around as easily based on physical speed and SMART ability.
Bigger Targets.


The Pros
Availability of more firepower (both in Heavy only weapons and the ability to carry certain secondary weapons).
More HPs.


I find that the pros outweigh the cons in more situations for me. With a decent teammate I can negate some of the emobility issues (medic speed boosts) and being a bigger target doesn't really change much since we all stick out with that bright red glow, where as having more ammo and more health has helped me through situations on many occasions. I'm actually nervous about going back to my smaller guys for awhile because I've gotten so good with the heavy gear.