yeah I don't know what an RPG is, thanks for that,
I was not attempting to tell people what can and cannot be used to role play with, I have been playing dungeons and dragons since Advanced D&D came out, featuring the Unearthed Arcana, and my point remains the same, Role Playing is about choices, take away those choices in the Genre and the game is no longer an RPG,
BF3 is a 1st person shooter, Diablo is a Action Adventure game they are defined into Genre's, I never once said that RPG's are defined on success and failings of the numbers or Dice Roles.
oin any case, BF3 is based on the numbering of how much damage the weapon can do and how much the target can take, this is basically dice roles.. and has nothing to do with what I am attempting to convey

I stick to my previous posts.

If you need numbers to tell you what your character is, then you don't understand "role playing".

You may have mastered "roll playing", but you don't understand "role playing". You understand min / maxing a stat sheet, not character development.

I don't want your numbers getting in the way of me being able to develop my character.

Exactly, because the majority of people are less then bright SKyrim got gutted to cater to those people who think less complexity = a better game. Just look on the bright side, some company somewhere will give us proper rpg... one day... please?

Ah...you're talking about the Battlefield series? Because I've played two of that series' games (Battlefield 2 and 2142, and in both I chose weapons that were tactically sound for the environment/situation, not what did the highest damage. No way is that series an RPG in any way, shape or form...

I am as well and agree.

I wish these people would stop acting like they own the genre and define who plays it:

"Those who are perfectly happy just running around killing things, exploring some dungeons, collecting loot and doing quests. And those who want rich and meaningful character development and progression behind all that. To the former, stats are just an obstacle to overcome. They're not fussed about spending hours defining who their character is - all they want to do is play around with their character's appearance then make them all-powerful as quickly as possible so they can go and play TES like a sandbox action-adventure game. To the latter group, attributes are a must"

Funny because in my RP experiences some of the ones most obsessed with stats are the ones that want to run around and kill stuff and collect loot. Munchkins, min/maxers - they don't get where they are by being fabulous RPers using stats to create rich and meaningful characters.

Of course I wont generalize and say it is all like that, because it is not. Just like not every person "want rich and meaningful character development and progression behind all that" is rudderless ships if they don't have columns of numbers and those who want to do nothing but kill and loot don't give a toss about stats.

I will speak for myself and myself alone, and not try and apply my standards to en entire hobby, when I say I WANT rich and meaningful character development and progression behind all that and I don't believe I need old school attributes to do it. In fact I prefer they were as behind the scenes and out of sight as possible.

So it seems there is at least three types of TES fans.



I don't know.... with that kind of attitude I wouldn't want to be a company developing anything for you.

:facepalm:

Yet another person who can't understand the difference between the literal definition of roleplaying, and the RPG video game genre.

Imagination only goes so far in video games. To allow for things such as progression, meaningful choice and consequences, you NEED numbers. Sure, if I go up to an NPC and hit them, I can imagine that that NPC now dislikes me and refuses to help me on my quest... but unless there's an actual number behind the scenes which changes to generate a different response from that NPC in future, it's kind of pointless. That number can be represented to the player as "Infamy" or simply left behind the scenes. It doesn't matter, as long as it's there. Without it, the gameworld feels that little bit more shallow without any consequences for attacking NPCs.

SINCE WHEN?!

Since the first rpg made it so? Jesus who are we to go against the norm. Oppression and stats! You darn commies trying to get rid of stats in an rpg. Blasphemy. How dare a role be chosen based on....... dare I say.... choice... instead of digital dice and numbers. Just like Final Fantasy is based on attributes.

/sarcasm

Sadly, this is just a purely arrogant post. There's no such thing as being "arcane" to what "role playing" is, though I get the feeling you will insist that you are arcane. <_<

I would prefer a game where the way I play my character and the actions they take define them, not where I elect to put numbers periodically.



It doesn't really seem any more arrogant then any number of other posts in this thread from both sides of the argument. In fact it seems a lot less arrogant.

Ok, so tell me this, how does Skyrim limit your "meaningful" progression or "choice" any more than its predecessors did?

Also, explain to me why you need "numbers" to play an RPG game.

you are quite correct, and had this been a thread for a different argument I would not be replying past "I agree"
I uphold the need for mechanics simply as a method of Arbitration, with Skyrims Character system, at the core all Characters are the same, there are no Smart ones, or Strong ones or Fast ones, they start and for the most part stay the same, the perks are the only variable, I do not care to see the numbers in my playing, but I am aware they are there, they allow us to know that certain weapons are more likely to speed up a kill or in the case of me when I attacked my first giant, lead to my rapid demise..
I can Quote the line from the AD&D 2ed DMG's Forward if ya like, but I think that would be unnecessary, since I agree with Role Playing over Roll Playing, I simply like the Stats as they allow me to define my character well, from how strong they are to how likable, and from there, I venture forth to riches or demise what ever the adventure brings..
but I refuse to call an Action Adventure Game, an RPG..

Here's a thought. Maybe Bethesda doesn't want to be an RPG on terms of stats and attributes. Maybe they want *CHOICE* in their games. Maybe choice is a major focus in development. Maybe the fact that choice is becoming more preferred in "RPG" games is starting to have an effect on this. I also fail to see how a perk tree, is so much different than spamming destruction spells and leveling magicka. Perks are, in a sense, an active attribute. You place them where you want them, instead of spamming magicka every level. I fee like this allows for a more personalized character.

That;s you. A company deeloping an RPG for people like would be doing it for the love of the RPG genre, not catering to the masses.

You do realise that's essentially what you're doing with perks, right? :confused: Perks are just neatly packaged numbers you pick periodically to define who your character is. The only difference is, it's a lot quicker and simpler that way.

well they are doing pretty bad at that concept because there isn't much "choice" in skyrim to begin with. and lets lose the red herring "Rpg don't need no stats, use your mind" because thats just going over board. and I rather not hear cases of brain hemorrages because peeps are over thinking and trying to influence the game with their none existent Time/Space altering abilities.

the game doesn't give two cents about what you think, and if your character doesn't have Stats to govern it In the game, then there really isn't much point.

It's not about numbers.

It's about CHOICE, and being able to control all facets of your character's progression.

Complexity meant more choice.

STREAMLINING means less choice.

It was the most flawed aspect of the game. Grinding skills for +5? Hella fun!

because stats are good in a P&P or turn based games not so much in more action-e games like this.
After playing games that used stats and Skyrim I find Skyrim miles better.

Numbers are used to relay in the system mechanics the amount of Chance of Success a character has, ultimately the Dungeon Master of the game, (in Skyrims case, The Bethesda Programmers) decides on what will help or hinder the game, to make it playable, since the Programmers are not at the table like in Table Top RPG's they rely on the numbers to make the call, this stands true to all Computer games really due to the very nature of computers..
As one who has been a Dungeon Master, I know how much it means to keep the story going, we humans have a key advantage over the computers as we can decide to cheat the rules if we want and allow the players success or not, based on responses on how they play their role, computers cannot do that (yet).

I clocked up many many hours playing Delta Force over the years and my choices of weapons in those games has to do with my preference to Sniping, and doing it without being noticed, I don'y worry about how much damage the weapon does only that it works for the role I was in.

no point sniping with a glock. so yeah I get the difference between roll and role, in this thread and arguement, I cite this, what is a Dice, a thing with numbered sides used to generate random numbers, what is a computer, a mathmatical device used to calculate numbers, so really CRPGS are just Dice based RPG's which have replaced the Dice with Central Processing Units.

You're making a fool of yourself right now. How was the stat system complex? You could max out every stat in the game.

Progression feels a lot quicker and simpler than in previous TES games. For my melee character, I just alternate between Stamina and Health each time I level up, and in next to no time at all I have enough perk points to max out all of the skill trees i'm interested in for that character.


With Strength and Endurance now bundled together into Stamina, I can no longer make a physically weak character with high endurance... or a physically strong character who's a poor runner. I can also no longer make a character who's naturally fast and agile - all I can do is avoid a speed reduction by not picking heavy armour, and even then it's possible to get a perk that makes heavy armour weightless fairly early on.


Without numbers, you cannot have character definition, progression, or meaningful choice / consequences (ie. choices that have a direct impact on your character and their interaction with the gameworld). I gave you a perfectly good example in the previous post. If you still don't understand, i'm not even going to bother wasting my time.

Then start with yourself, your very responses belie that what you dislike.



Yet, what you describe (and I highlighted) is exactly what Skyrim allows for. Oblivion and before made the palyer stick with their choices for a build, because choosing alternate attributes against that race, class and sign one chose to progress, happens very slowly. Now, Skyrim does do this to an extent, but it seem it has two default skills that level fast, regardless of the race one chooses. In Skyrim, running around, killing, looting, steaking, etc makes for fast leveling on "all" levels and that fits right in what you decry in your quotation. You should rethink your complaints a bit more, or else at least experience playing previous TES game in depth



Again, you are describing what Skyrim doesn't really allow for, as it promotes the running around, etc as you so describe. Seriously, if it were as you say, I would be screaming how awful Morrowind is in comparison, but that would be me lying otherwise.



Your obsession with these purported obsessions of others is quite telling to say the least while you obsess away. Again, you are describing what can be easily done in Skyrim. Leveling is so easy in Skyrim no matter what skill I choose.



This is the first in the posts I have read by you, that you make the "speak for myself" claim, yet you go out of your way to belie this with the very words you typed just before here in this very same post of yours. You, nor I, nor anyone else, gets to tell others what RPing is to them and what is meaningful to them. Since you wanted to make the comparisons, I can just as well do the same thing and actually be consistent about it.



I am not alone, yet you describe two types of TES fans, not three; more inconsistency it seems.

My Problem is they took out luck. In Fallout and Oblivion I use to love having luck high. It was cool. So in the next DLC I want them to ad a Luck Perk Tree.

Perks are related to skills, and therefore should not be considered a substitute for attributes.

Here's an example i've used before to explain the different roles attributes and skills play...

If you went to hit someone with a sword, several things should factor into how effective the attack is:

- Your physical attributes (if you're strong, you'll be able to deal a more powerful blow, if you're agile, you'll move quicker, etc)
- Your skill with the type of weapon you're using
- The quality of the weapon you're using
- Your targets physical attributes, skills, armour, etc.

It's the same principle as real life when you think about it. Take one of those factors out of the equation in a video game, and combat becomes a lot more simplified and less realistic.

Oh no!, now you've done it, you went on to make sense :tongue: !