Your points may be valid, but the point of the thread is... Morrowind/Oblivion was a much more advanced game because of attributes.

I agree, while it could be modded in, I can see it being a heck of a lot of work (since you'd need to change some core system processes) to actually get an attribute system to work in skyrim now. However I can still make my suggestions here for whatever game maybe next in the future. I say oblivion broke it because the attributes being so important was one of the reason the level scaling kicked most people's back-sides that were not skilled enough to do the research into how to level within Oblivion.

edit: The reason I suggested the system that I did, is because it is more passive, it is not overly complicated. There are more differences I'd make because for me the races are too overly simplified to the point they're barely unique statistically anymore, I'd put racial modifiers on them, so that say Nords and Orc get slightly more Health from endurance then a Breton or Altmer but that Breton and Altmer gets slightly more magicka from intelligence then Nord or Orc does, tho I'd make the difference subtle, so that it's only about +1 every 3 or 4 levels.

Because they thought taking that system, stripping it of 7 attributes, making all the perks Manual and majaority percent based increase was somehow "complex" well no they didnt say it was complex, people here are saying its complex. and its not. just arbitrary tick boxes than EVEN in themselves could have been handled far better than the, you cannot decapitate people until or your weapons won't act like they inheretly should until you use a perk for it

I can agree with you in the context of the simplification of Skyrim's system, but I do miss the complexity. Having said that, Skyrim will not allow you to use 1/3 of those perks, so, it can make the game frustrating even if you bend along the class you want to play. While I like that every skill can level up, and certain skills will level according to your class choices, in Oblivion, Morrowwind and especially, Daggerfall, when one chose the primary attributes, they really reflected the class better (choosing the sign after the class choice). Also, you could utilize the skills more with the older system as well since one designated their class along the primary seven attributes. All in all though, I do like Skyrim's system as it changed it up from past TES games, and I still find it rewarding. But having the ability to level all skills as you see fit seems to allow for easier exploitation of the system outside of glitching the game.

Personally I didn't like stats as people would say "I want to be a smart person, so I need intelligence" or "I want to be strong, I want a strength attribute" but when in dialouge, generally you have no option to project that strength of intelligence. Fallout 3 was a good step in that direction, but even then, there was a lot of situations where I would have to pick an idiotic dialouge choice. (or have no choices)
Though, I agree, the 'magic, stamina, health' system is a bit....... blunt. I think that getting rid of oblivions stat system was a good thing, but skyrim's system seems to lack "The special element", I'm not sure what it is, but the perk system has it.

As someone who played (and finished or "won") the other four games and never gave a moment's thought to how many points I'd get to raise an attribute when my character leveled (Do people really worry about getting fives every time they level? Seriously?), I really miss the old system. I liked being dexterous, quick, and lucky.

So I'm wrong when I say "some people like the new perk system and some people don't"? I'm also wrong for saying I find the attribute system to be rather stale? I'm sorry, but when were people allowed to tell me what to like in a video game? Not trying to sound like a butt or anything.

Also, I know there are people who like the perk system and don't like the perk system in this thread alone. So.../confused

I never did but some here seem to believe that we all sat around swing long blades at a tree for hours or something like that, we didn't. You just play the way you like and you would end up with 2's or 3's in the favored places.

Yeah, because we have to break games if we know how to. You didn't know that haste moved ahead of crit?

No. Some people that don't like the fact they were removed like to say that is why they were removed in order to cast their removal in a bad light by indirectly insulting people who prefer different systems.

"What, you don't mind they were removed? So I guess they were too complex for you? Why don't you go play COD blah blah patronizing garbage blah".



Yes. Thank you, good post.

I have played plenty of RPGs and I have never complained when a designer comes up with a better system that hides the machinery better. I care about the RPing and being able to create and grow a character in the world. I don't need in you fact numbers telling me everything my character does is numbers. And that growing is about putting numbers here so this number goes up affecting the number here so you do more damage when you hit the enemy character... etc.

I want fluid character development. I want dynamic character development. I was a more natural feel to character development. If I can't have that I want the next best thing. Skyrim is a step in the right direction. It needs polishing and tweaking, but I don't miss attributes. I don't feel like my character is growing because I get to sit there for ten minutes trying to decide what the best place is to put this +1. They were outdated - mechanics can do better. Mechanics can be better. And they can intrude less into the world.

Only when I wanted to see if I could make a "perfect" character once where I did end out with 100 in every attribute (including luck) and without having to abuse level grinding or exploiting jails. Else wise I just generally made sure nothing went excessively faster then anything else so the character was not excessively weakened.

...because stupid people find 8 simple attributes to be a confusing "spreadsheet" of information.

...because TES is now aimed at people who don't even like RPGs, or whose prior experience with "RPGs" is limited to action games like Mass Effect or Fable.


Chances are, if you support Bethesda's decision to remove attributes, you fit into one of the above.

Well theres nothing fluid or dynamic about the current system

I think we're not getting attributes back. I think we're going to chase whatever is working in some game that will be popular early in the development of the next TES game, regardless of suitability for the learn-by-doing system and the open world nature of TES.

I thought that was the post I quoted, anyway.

nope neither. Fable is trash and I could not care less about Mass Effect bc sci fi doesnt do it for me. love math... use spreadsheets everyday. they removed the attributes because they did not enhance their games. do they enhance just about every other game with roleplaying roots? yes...but TES stats got in the way.

So very much this. I ground out my levels in Oblivion and Morrowind both so I could get past that nonsense, stop leveling and dealing with all the balanced leveling silliness, and get on with enjoying the gameworld. The optimal way to PLAY your character in those games was not the optimal way to BUILD your character.

Skyrim's system actually encourages you to merge the two to produce the most potent character you can have at level 10, at level 30, and at level 50. Whereas MW & OB encouraged you to develop "off" skills throughout the leveling process to maximize your attributes as you leveled, Skyrim's system actually discourages this. Sure, you COULD pound out a bunch of levels by boosting your unused magic/off-weapon skills, but then you've just leveled up the enemies without improving your own core combat skills, making the game harder rather than easier.

Agreed. Mechanically speaking the new system is far from perfect but I see great potential for it and with a little bit of work I think the decision to move on from traditional style attributes will be a good one.



Hmmm.



I've played some PnP games with people that are definitely over obsessive about min-maxing etc. Nothing wrong with that (as long as I don't have to try and RP with them) but it really came off as a safety blanket type thing and desire to "win" - they had to know, exactly, the pro/con anolysis of something, they had to know doing this would give them a clear advantage in battles etc charisma, surely that's not important, it can be a dump stat, I need to max out stamina!

They weren't RPing, they were designing killing machines or magical monsters - I often thought they would have been better building a robot for Robot Wars then trying to RP.

And thus I am greedy with my wishes for game mechanics. I want attributes and stats as behind the scenes and growing naturally as possible based on the actions of my character, training and that kind of thing. Not on me pondering for ten minutes where this or that +1 will do the most good.

I don't mind the new system, as I indicated in my previous reply, but your "+1" comment doesn't hold water. In role playing, if someone is already leaning towards a certain build, they will not be spending 10 minutes wondering where to place that point, they are going to use it according to what they want to be in the game they play. Why is that any different than the perk system in Skyrim using your logic, as one would go in a merry-go-round with the skill trees trying to decide what to improve on with the choice of a certain perk. They simplified it in Skyrim and I don't mind it, but being able to really choose my build and then the system recognizes that as I chose the points to use accordingly, seemed more in depth than Skyrim. But, I do think Beth will improve upon this as they move on with the series. I will admit that Oblivion's/Morrowind's systems and especially Daggerfall's system could be complex and frustrating, but that shouldn't be held against those who like those systems.

Let's not get it twisted....it was not the issue of deciding which stat to choose upon Level-Up... it was the process to getting there......(and Endurance being a near requirement...the earlier the better)

It's undeniable that the loss of attributes limits the breadth and depth of possible character options. Whether all the end effects are represented is immaterial. The issue concerns how and to what degree you can manipulate those effects.

Health gains from endurance always should have been retroactive. Not sure why they didn't do that.

In your opinion. To many other people, stats add a LOT to the gameplay experience. Hence why so many people have rightly commented on how lacking character development is in Skyrim. :confused:

I think what it comes down to is there are two types of TES fans. Those who are perfectly happy just running around killing things, exploring some dungeons, collecting loot and doing quests. And those who want rich and meaningful character development and progression behind all that. To the former, stats are just an obstacle to overcome. They're not fussed about spending hours defining who their character is - all they want to do is play around with their character's appearance then make them all-powerful as quickly as possible so they can go and play TES like a sandbox action-adventure game. To the latter group, attributes are a must. They enjoy spending time building their character (not just deciding their physical appearance), and value progression, meaningful choice, consequences for actions, etc. as important aspects of the game.

Thank you, thank you, thank you. I can not agree enough.

I played Morrowind for the RP. The system didn't lend itself to character uniqueness, my imagination was needed for that (which was good, I like using it). If often ended up with magewarriorthief characters unless I really worked not to (and at a certain point you have to stop pushing that boulder up a hill). People talk about how the attributes let you "make the character what you want them to be" - maybe in the beginning, but not as the game moved on.

Skyrim however - not a single character I have created and played is in anyway the same. Mechanically I can "make the character you want them to be" in Skyrim, and it works and keeps on working. I have a pure mage. I have a semi-paladin (well bureaucratic warrior with some healing can-trips). A vampiric arcane duelist. Coupled with the RP factor the mechanics of Skyrim work better for me than the old attribute style in creating a unique character in my head and in game.




Riiiiiight.

Silly generalizations for the win! Go home all you stupid people that have played every TES game since arena and somehow like the new system. Do you know how to use doorhandles? Ok, sorry, I wasn't sure, it was just that since you were to stupid for old style TES attributes, it just seems sensible a door handle would also be too complex for you.

I loved the complexity of stats .... but I am also satisfied with skyrims system

You are right but Skyrim isn't the game to end all games...there are Attribute fixes out there.... starting with WoW.

I play Skyrim because I don't need to max my character....the only single player game I've played in forever.....every other game is a competition (as I generally prefer,but Skyrim is my downtime)

This system feels more natural, I mean the more I do something the better I am going to get at it right? That is how the system feels for me in Skyrim, and I honestly don't miss the past TES attributes..okay I lie, I do miss being able to jump roof to roof that was fun ^^, but other than that it required way to much micromanaging if you did not want to end up underpowered (Oblivion).
But other than that I largely prefer Skyrim's, and I honestly don't care what anyone else says, my opinion is my opinion.