If all they can do is human wave attack the hoover dam, all you need is artillery and MG fire to slaughter them en-masse. You know, like what happens historically when you try human wave attacking an entrenched force with automatic weapons.

Hell i cleaned out the fort with no serious injuries just by running in there with a LMG, AP ammo and combat armor. Just gunning down all the silly machete wielding legionnaires before they could even close to melee.

The tent battle with half a dozen praetorians was also a cake, even with the game limitation of not being able to set fire to the tent and shooting anyone that runs out. Ran in with a grenade launcher, two rounds later everyone is dead.

Well equiped teenagers are no match for well trained "Swordmen".

1: Legion is a bit more sophisticated than you think, & NCR is a bit more underequipped than you think. Historically, Ethiopa beat an Italian invasion, and they were just tribals against Enlightenment Age technology at that time, so it's not impossible.

2: What the player character can do in Fallout games is not treated as a viable yardstick for the strength of something. In every single one of them, the PC can reach a point where not too awful much is a threat to them, and what is still a threat can be fought on even terms. Every game except Fallout 3 handles this well, but that's a discussion for another day.

3: See above. In lore, Praetorians are Caesar's elite guards, but in game, they have too few hit points for an opponent of their caliber.

-Nukeknockout

In truth, they plan to go up the Hoover Dam pipes and quietly storm the dam in that sense.

So they actually are a threat.

Doesn't matter though, if your character doesn't side with them, they won't win.

They are a threat to mankind. They have slaves. That makes them a threat.

Cheers

I think he's asking about in general why they are.

A. Frumentarii - The Legion couldn't win in the Mojave without these guys. They're the Legoin's spys and damn they're good. They destroyed Nipton lowering NCR morale, set of a dirty bomb in Searchlight killing scores of NCR troopers and taking their best defensive position in the South, they bomb the Monorail stopping the NCR from saving the Embassy, they have a mole in McCarran which allows the Fiends to overrun the camp and allows Nelson to fall. They support the Khans which means they're drug dealing to the Fiends continues, and they inadvertently caused the Powder Gangers to exist and destroyed the I-15 supply lines by making the NCR move troops from NCRCF to the eastern front because of the bombing of Searchlight.

B. Tactics- The way the Legion attacks you is pretty smart. If they have a group of 4 for example. The 2 weakest will run at you full speed with melee, even if you can take them out without dying you've been pumped full of lead from the other 2 with guns. Now scale that up by thousands and that's how the Legion wins battles. They aren't as good at defending though, because of that, and I still contend that One Ranger will a sniper rifle could of taken back Nelson easily.

Yeah that's what the Japanese thought when they faced Green American troops at Guadalcanol and pretty much every battle during the Pacific campaign. Mass wave attacks with swords can't win against people with machine guns and artillery.

Legion are a threat because they are also every good at infiltration, spying and sabotage. They are good at cutting supply lines, so all those machine guns are useless without the ammo.

Take a look at this => http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aPnbkvL1IQA

Worth noting however, is that the Ethiopians outnumbered the Italians considerably. I'm not enitrely sure what Legion's numbers are in the Mojave, but I don't believe they are much more than what the NCR has. Truthfully, the Legion's machete wielding soldiers simply are unrealistic in being able to go toe to toe against an NCR soldier with any sort of firearm. Not without considerable fire-support. Their armor is too poor and they would realistically be mowed down.

Infiltration missions? In some circumstances: yes. Flanking manuevers and ambushes? Perhaps. Charging pel-mel at soldiers with fire-arms and expecting victory? No.


Shogun 2 expansion?

Must...find out.....more...

In general, any type of high-number, very angry force is going to be a big issue.

Your ignornce shows in that you don't even know how they attacked, when the Battle of Hooverdam begins he Legion attacks from both above and below the dam. Your intrenched fortification is just about worthless if the enemy sneaks inside the back way. They come swarming up the intake tunnels which the NCR failed to secure. They also launch simultaneous attacks on NCR locations up and down the Mojave, including Camp Gulf, Camp McCarren The Strip, and Forlorn Hope. The legion forces attacking the dam also have marksman carbines and anti-material rifles, high end weapons. They also have an artiliery cannon up at the fort which is used in the opening moments of the battle to blow up the gun mounted on the hooverdam. (Which they manage to get working even without the Courier).

Before the http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/Fallout:_New_Vegas_patch_1.3.0.452 patch upgraded the service rifle, Legion grunts would routinely mop the floor with NCR patrols. The legion never got an upgrade to companstate for the one the NCR got. On release it was a pathatic weapon and it was very clear how machette wielding psychos in sport wear could rip them to shreds. Sense the patch a NCR patrol can now concentrate enough firepower to take a target out before they close to melee range. It important to consider how the sides were balanced on release of the game.

Your Courier's ability means nothing in terms of the strength of one side in the war. You can wipe out the NCR bases fairly easily at high level with high end weapons too, so I can easily ask how are the NCR a threat based on that assumption.

How are the NCR a threat when they can't secure there supply lines, when they can't protect Searchlight, Forlorn Hope, Nelson, Nipton, the monorail, The Quarry, or there own president. The NCR is divided, overexented and everyone has there own agenda.

The legion agenda is "Hail Caesar." They are singularly focused which is a big advantaage

@Lt.
Am I the only person who think's it's unrealistic the Legion would of taken Camp Golf? Short of them running out of ammo I don't see how the Legion could of had enough strength to take the location considering most of their high ranking soldiers would already be dead/injured from taking Forlorn and the Dam. Even if they did the traditional send waves of recruits bit, the NCR troopers posted their would have taken most of that punishment. (I always use Pre-Patch so I'm unaware how it works now) In the NPC wars videos even at close range Veteran Rangers kill Centurions let alone the lower ranking members. I mean come on look at this

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mmr5e6Nwmyk

Now picture the Centurions trying to just get to the front door of the house, they'd be dead before they reached the stairs. How in the hell would they take Camp Golf?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WQcjNUefIEI&feature=related

Come on even at close range 4 Veteran Rangers can take out the Legions top dog, Legate. So can you picture a fight in which waves upon waves of Legionaries die to no avail?

Author Fiat. Really, the idea that a horde of slavers and rapists swinging machetes and throwing spears somehow has a snowball's chance in hell against people with assault rifles and machine guns in open battle is a bad one that keeps getting trotted out because too many people are JRPG fans.

Against Eddie and his "legion" a couple troops of armed Boy Scouts could hold Hoover Dam.

They're not. They're cannon fodder.

I've noticed that there might be enough legionaires using guns to make them a legitimate threat, they shoot while the idiots with machetes act as a human shield.

Yes, they outnumbered the Italians 4 to 1. Also, they weren't tribals, many had guns. Emperor Menelik II had been busy securing European technology prior to taking the throne. Add to that the fact that Italy was one of the weakest Great Powers at the time, and you can how the Ethiopians won. It's a similar situation here in fact.

Indeed. Menelik was no pushover and his army was remarkably well organized and trained.

Ethiopia was an exception to the general rule of European powers being able to take on "less advanced" states with some ease.

Yes. Yes they can you are so right I forgot wh....Heck I can't even pretent to agree with you

OT: They are a threat to NCR because:
They are of equal size to the NCR - no one NCR has faced has been of equal size.
They have the same level of training as the Rangers - no one NCR has faced has been trained so well.
They are genetically superior - no one in NCR has equal height or strength as a Centurion.
They are intelligent and tactical - no one NCR has faced has implemented such great warfare tactics.
They are well armed/supplied - NCR has failed to supply it's troops with the bare essentials.
They have allies - NCR has not one ally in the Mojave.
They have Cottoncove - NCR has already failed in stopping the Legion crossing the river.
They have the Frumentarii - no one in NCR knows who they are.
They have Lanius/Vulpes - NCR has who...Oliver/Moore
They build bridges - NCR burns bridges.
They are a deticated military force - Half the NCR isn't commited to their war efforts.
They are taking over the Mojave - NCR is crumbling in the Mojave.

Without Courier intervention the NCR are weak and helpless - There are countless examples of this.
The Profligates will be made examples of. The "threat" of the Legion is very real in the Mojave.
We Are legion!

I just feel like shouting something out for the more ignorant anti-Legion bias players:

Legion uses firearms too, stop saying they only use machete's. They also train and raid most of their lives while NCtRoopers get a month training, crap equipment and get high or drunk on The Strip.

Also remember that Legion are religious zealots who will do anything for Caesar, even kill themselves if they are captured.
As compared to NCtRoopers who at least half has bad or awful morale.

Just saying.

Lets hope at least the machete nonesense that the profligates spread comes to an end.

Exactly. Sabotage, Frumentarii, Guerrilla warfare, huge loyalty to Caesar, and waves of men that only get stronger and stronger is what makes the Legion a threat. A blood-thirsty Legionnaire against some farm boy-turned-trooper isn't going to end well for the Trooper. The only thing the NCR can one-up against the Legion is equipment and men.

Ever notice that when you prod legion lovers with the cold, gritty stick of realism that they always say they love they start all-capsing and start getting half-brained snippy?

It's amusing. "Blood thirsty legion" doesn't matter when they have to charge positions held by men with automatic weapons. Deal with it. Your beloved grimdark BS is a "threat" in the game only because the writers said so.

Case in point: When the Service Rifle got upgraded to act like a goddamed AR15 and 5.56 started behaving like the proper armor-penetrating, day-wrecking round that it actually is, the Legion fans started [censored]ing that leather and thin sheet metal riveted onto football pads didn't stop them well enough, and the bum-rushing a combat patrol with a sharp stick and a battle cry didn't work anymore. Go figure.

It isn't that the Legion doesn't use guns (yes of course they do), but simply that I believe there is still too many machete wielders in its ranks for it to be realistic in in fighting the NCR. That is something that cannot be denied.

More to the point, the NCR armor looks like it would have little trouble stopping the machetes regardless of how close the Legionaries are able to get.


Both of which matter quite a bit. Training can only go so far.

As a good historic example, why is it that ranks of inaccurate muskets that could only fire perhaps one round a minute replaced bowmen (such as skilled longbowmen) who could reliably fire 6-7 arrows per minute and with often deadly accuracy and range?

The answer? It takes only a brief amount of time for someone to learn how to load a musket and then point and shoot it. Granted they may not be quite as accurate, but they can still do significant damage in numbers (with greater penetration as well). Whereas it takes years for a longbowman to train and be able to hit a target. When that longbowman was lost, it was far harder to replace him than it was to train a new musketman.

In other words, the Legion may have soldiers who are deadly with a machete. But when it comes down to it, no amount of training is going to be of use against even a "farm boy" with an automatic weapon in his hand who's had enough training (and the NCR soldiers do get a decent amount of training in) to reliably shoot it. The only way the Legion soldier would be able to win is if he had armor which could stop the bullets (and ad-hoc football pads certainly aren't going to do that) or if he was able to surprise the NCR trooper (which is possible but only in certain situations.)

Furthermore, as you have already stated, the Legion doesn't even have as many soldiers as the NCR does. Which means they can't afford to lose as many men (making those "suicide charges" rather silly indeed). Add this to the point I made in regards to the historic example of the longbowmen, and it takes longer to train a legionary to be a successful machete wielder than it does for the NCR to give a conscript a semi-auto weapon and tell him how to point and shoot the charging Legionaries.

The fact of the matter is that really the Legion is a poorly equipped fighting force. Regardless of how well they can throw a knife, wield a 2 foot long rusty machete, or what have you. In my opinion, they have far too few gun-wielders and far too poor armor.


I sort of agree here.

Another thing that pisses me off in game was Nelson now that I think about it. I mean come on seriously, the Legion would of run out of supplies in a matter of days and one lone [censored] sniper could of taken them out from the hillside. In fact in game the Legion was really to overpowered in many different areas. The only way the Legion is really a threat is Oliver's incomptance. With the assets the NCR has in even the pre-patch game they could easily beat the Legion back.

As far as I can remember, NCR hands worn-out rifles to farm kids and tells them which end the bullet comes out of. That is their equipment and training. The NCR does not have much amunition, only a couple machine guns, and very little discipline. When the time for battle at the damn arrives they will be a confused mess with scant means of defending themselves. Pretty sure the Legion have more troops too.

The Legion is highly disciplined and capable of adapting to situations on-the-fly. They do not need sophisticated gear since all they have to do is out maneuver the enemy while NCR's equipment runs out of ammo and/or breaks down.

I think it is a fairly even match.

That is the heart of the matter right there. A West Point cadet could implement a better strategy for the Mojave campaign than Oliver has. Eddie's plan is actually quite sound but the NCR isn't even trying to counteract it, which is quite unrealistic. To make the story work, the devs made Oliver a complete idiot, which is ironic as they've said that "Wait and See" Oliver was intended to be a slam of "blood and guts" generals like Patton. The NCR has the numbers and economic strength to destroy the Legion utterly, they just aren't allowed to as the devs want the Courier to choose who wins and loses in the Mojave.