There has been much complaining about the direction of the series, how it is being dumbed down for the masses. Yet, think about it - The Elder Scrolls have always been famous for having a huge, immersive game world. Last time I checked, Oblivion and Skyrim follow that tradition and enhace it thanks to new harder. So yes, The Elder Scrolls will always be the Elder Scrolls. The debate seems to be on how to approach this - from a system based on the tried-and-true D&D formula of classes, numbers and attributes, or a more action, streamlined experience only possible in video games. However, i find the attitude of the fans of the former to be very selfish. I am from the latter camp for many reasons. However, I think you guys have had your time. For over a decade, RPGs have followed the same standard. You have has Arena, Daggerfall and Morrowind, We have had Oblivion. You have had classics such as Baldur's Gate 2, while we have, well, Two Worlds 2. I honestly think we deserve some recognision as well as a part of the core, dedicated audience, that deserve to have just as many quality titles that we can enjoy for years to come. The genre must also move forward and embrace the potential of the new hardware. Classes and attributes are for pen & paper. So here is my plea - get of your high horses, stop acting like old farts and accept that change happens and that you are not the smartest, bestest gamers out there. Thank you. And if you disagree, please post a sensible, constructive reply. I am more than glad to discuss this.

I only hated Oblivions leveling system and item scaling

Classes can be used for pen & paper. Traveller doesn't use them, though.

Attributes are used for defining a character. They allow for detailed variance in character potential. Classes also can be used to define characters, to specify in which areas they are gifted or not. Nothing that adds to character definition is extraneous in an RPG, except when the gameplay fails to accomodate it.

We are not in the age of gaming where the game can read the players mind and transcribe their roleplaying vision into the game and make it tangible, where such extent of roleplayer was perfectly viable during pen and paper it is not for games, you can -think- all you want but its not going to show up in the game, and quite frank I'd like to enjoy my game, not come up with reasons why I can/cannot do something when the game doesnt have the option. the classes, Attributes, all of that is the GAME telling you what your CHARACTER, I.E not you can do/preform in the game vs other NPC's who are also under the same rules of Classes, Attributes and so fourth. if a game was based entirely on player skill it would be a hack and slash and there is or rather there should be more going on than just a player spamming swing swing swing till something dies.


and ultimately you've no Idea whether or not what direction is right as far as the games concerned especially when its not even out. and b4 someone tells me I can't make presumptions, sorry the information is there, the past experiences with such moves are there. Time does not have to = loss of features as far as a dev company is concerned, its their game its ultimately up to them what can and cannot be, if they can work on Dragons for 2 years for an open world RPG in the likes not done before....the no no excuse is valid why things like Attributes and classes could not properly be done, instead we get half assed excuses like trickle down and spreadsheety when the entire game is freaking comprised of numbers..

The OP almost sounded like an Evangelist Sermon...

M

OP is why RPG fans can't have nice things.
Fans of those scary stats and classes used to have our games, and you had yours. They're called action games. You're getting your action all over my RPG.

It seems pretty clear what you want is an ACTION game. There are plenty of games that claim to be RPGs that can help you there. RPGs, or at very least, if your definition of RPGs is looser, TES games, have always been about building your character through their stats. That's not to say Skyrim actually IS removing this to any unreasonable degree (in most cases), in my opinion, but it is still one of the basic elements of RPG gaming, and if you don't like that, then obviously, this is not the type of game you're looking for, and maybe you should try one of the games that fits closer into the category of "action".

RPGs were created because of technological limitations in the first places. Things such as classes and attributes are becoming obsolete as new games are able to represent these things in realistic ways.

I like to see something new. Oblivion was different from Morrowind. I still liked it. From what I have seen, Skyrim will be the best TES game so far. Though modding Morrowind is too much fun to ever stop with it

Hey, I love stats as much as the next guy, but I like a new direction that distances itself from its origins. Also, RPG stand for Role Playing. Nowhere does it say that numbers should determine your role. Why not your actions? Oh and by the way, since when does Uncharted provide the size, depth, lore, beauty and choice of a quality RPG. It is my favourite genre. Again, I love old school RPGs. But it is nice to have some progress, don't you think?

Oblivions leveling system was absolutely horrible in every way. The overworld is boring and isn't as the Lore describes it as. The Oblivion gates lead to 7 dungeons instead of warping you to different areas of a large epic realm of the deadlands. Werewolves and other were creatures are absent and many of the game's climactic points turned out to be mundane. Mannimarco? A lousy high elf. Becoming the gray fox and infiltrating the tower to steal an elder scroll? EPIC, but the quest line is still glitchy as hell. (master fencer npc broken) The lack of variety completely takes away from being whoever you want in a large epic world. Oblivion needs to be remade in the future. The main character accomplished so much, but it should've been a lot better.

I like what they're changing in Skyrim. My only complaint is the lack of weapon variety, but I can deal with it. One can only hope they not only bring back, but continually add new weapons for the player to, well, play with.

and it seems to me whjat everyone on this forum wants is to go play dungeons and dragons. If you all want a real Roleplaying experience where you are constantly chugging poptions, looking for gear that gives you the +1 dex or strength and you don't care about the gameplay; go play D&D or DDO even (its free ya know). Honestly I love ksyrims new direction and am a BIG rpg fan. The point is if all an RPG is from here till the end of time is a bunch of stats, then we will never have games like fable (one of course) where the real fun is the excellent gameplay in an rpg setting.

Believe me I was mad when Mass Effect 2 dropped like 10 of the old options you could level up, however I DO have to admit they improved the gameplay alot to help make up for it (still seemed kinda empty though)

I think what we need to look for here is a delicate balance, ME2 dropped almost of the skills which brought fun in leveling up, and they made the gameplay slightly better, however I on't think it was enough for me t say it was worth it. From what I have seen of skyrim the game is still Primarily rpg, but has had the gameplay drastically improved since OB.

People are also making a big deal about customization of their character, and the whole 'the armor might be jumpsuit like fallout' thing. I don't like the diea either but honestly if the gameplay is good, if they have a nice loot system, 100+dungeons a radiant story and some badass legendary items I think it would be one of those things i consider 'worth it'

People really need to stop focusing so much about whats been taken out and focus on the REASONS why it was taken out, and what has been added in return.

Lol.

As much as I love both. Oblivion and Morrowind. You want constructive replies to an insult. Get over yourself.

This, Oblivion was a great game, but Morrowind was obviously greater. I have just recently started playing Arena/Daggerfall and haven't dove very much into them, so no opinions yet.

LOL
I thought you would explain "why the new direction is the right direction" and your post still let me waiting.

I think that Oblivion found the perfect balance between RPG and action elements. Skyrim seems not too different from Oblivion so I'm not worried at all.

BUT THATS JUST ME

Ummm.... Because it is trying out something different and people shouldn't get pissed over it?

This plus... "Whats this!?!?! Another FREAKING replica!!! **** ********* ***** ****** ******!!!!!" :wink_smile:

You shouldnt make assumptions. Hopefully they are listening to you, and do it exactly how you want. Then our action game will be perfect.

Good points.
The tenion between character/player skills is rising and I don't think the old paradigm will last much longer. A new one is needed. Let's put that discussion on hold though.

I find your portrayal of Beth's decisions regarding classe and attributes interesting.
What exactly don't you like about them? To me, the explanation on attribute dismissal is quite convincing.

And what will keep you from roleplying as a, say, pure warrior?

For me, it has got to be the Oblivion Gates - I would avoid the Main Quest just so they wouldn't interrupt my exploration. I hope the dragons are not like that...

So just because you don't like old-school RPG's you think they should change? You think you deserve change because we old-school RPG players already have games to play?

Talk about arrogance.

There are plenty of quality titles out there, there are little to NO RPG's that are complex anymore. TES was the last, that changed with Oblvion.

It's very easy to move foward and embrace change AND keep the "RP" in Role Playing Games.

Just because something is different does not mean it is better, it depends on what was changed. The reason that many people on these forums are complaining about some changes is that, in their eyes, the changes are for the worse, that the changes are taking away too much content for no reason other than making TES more accessible to the masses. As you said, the D&D formula has been "tried and true." If so, why change it for something that only "dumbs down" the game? Why is complaining about the "streamlining" being selfish? You cited Two Worlds II as an example of how you want your RPGs to be. The majority of gamers thought Two Worlds II was a terrible game, it had almost no RPG elements, and was much more deserving of the "action game" title. (With a game world much smaller than a Bethesda game it still had serious bugs, such as the stairs one, but thats beside the point.)

We don't want TES to follow the same direction that other games have gone recently, we want it to stay complex and full of lore, we want to be able to spend literally HUNDREDS of hours in the game. What other games can boast this level of playability? Why in the hell would we want to change this? Why would we want to make the best like the rest?

If you don't want an RPG go play other games.

LOL. You know I always forget about the gates, since I got used to NOT doing the MQ specifically to avoid the things. bliviongate:

I never said i dislike old-school RPGs. I just want something new and exciting. It seems to me that the RPG genre has evolved the least. I think that Morrowind is just as good as Oblivion. However, over the history of gaming, there have been fewer titles like Oblivion than Morrowind, and fewer still those that are of high quality.