Hatred? I liked classes in Morrowind and Oblivion. But after looking back on them retrospectively, I can see how they are an outdated mechanic that is unnecessary to the role it (is supposed) to play.
A neurosurgeon isn't a neurosurgeon because his title on his desk says "neurosurgeon". A neurosurgeon is a neurosurgeon because he has the SKILLS to be a neurosurgeon.

If you give me a badge that says "Police Officer", I am not a police officer. Likewise, an officer in the line of duty without the proper SKILLS to be a police officer isn't a police officer, despite what his shiny badge says.

You're still continually missing the point.

This does not make sense to me... The class and personality of the character is the role, so without ? of it; how can one play the role accurately? Its not just making it up on the fly.

Your point is, is that you have no imagination whatsoever and need a title to help you RP due to your lack of an imagination. You're one of the people who bowl with the side rails up, despite being a great bowler because you lack confidence.
No, trust me, I'm very well aware of your point.

Well, the hatred part is claiming that ZZ has no backbone imagination wise. Didn't you mention something about hostility in another thread? Because I could sure sense it there.

And words, while retaining power, do not mean the same across cultures. Fish and Chips, for instance. Being American, one would logically assume Chips meant Doritos...etc. But everyone knows it's English derived, and actually means french fries.

And sometimes a player with a certain set of skills could be construed as many different types of classes. It helps to narrow it down by claiming the title.

I don't think he is, in fact, he has some validity in his statement. You do as well. It's clear you're both on two sides of the fence, but at this point we're just beating a dead horse.

Back to watching reservoir dogs.

What narrows down who your character is is IMAGINATION and how you USE said skills, IE playstyle. Really people. It's not that hard.
Use your imaginations. That's what RPG's are all about. Sheesh.

Okay... What is 'role playing' to you personally? (and specifically). I know that we all have our slight variation on it, but I cannot see how a character's past and context equates to training rails.

Obviously not, if you're going to sit there and straw man me like there's no tomorrow.



YES, we get this. We are not the ones missing the point here.

As I've said many times before, not everyone likes to leave everything up to the imagination. Especially when its only a matter of a rather simple UI change. Trust me, if I wanted to use my imagination to its fullest extents, I wouldn't need Skyrim. The point of gaming is to bring that imagination to a level where it can feel more real and immersive than if it were just in the back of your head still.

There is no right or wrong way to role play. Role playing is entirely user dependant. I might RP like "this", you might RP like "that".

To me, I roleplay in TES games 3 different characters, I have in every game. A Nord Warrior, a Bosmer Assassin, and an Altmer Sorcerer.
I was limited to simply a "Warrior" for my Nord in Oblivion. Likewise, I was limited to a "Sorcerer" for my Altmer, and I was limited to an "Assassin" for my Bosmer.
Now, with the implementation of perks, a more "defined" and honed way to play your character, with the implementation of dual wielding, the new spell combination system, I am opened up to entire new ways to roleplay because my choices have increased tenfold. I am no longer bound by a "class".
I will still be a Nord Warrior. But with my playstyle choice and perk choice, along with the exact number of skills I choose to use, I am the most definitive Nord Warrior I will have ever been come Skyrim.

Still detecting that hostility (which you so quaintly avoided to comment about).

And I do indeed use my imagination. Unless you can somehow read my mind and prove I have none, I would appreciate it if your condescending tone CEASED.

So you're conflating your own self-limitations with non-existant in-game limitations? Interesting.

And here's the flaw. Some people do like being forced tos tick with something.

For the millionth time, they should have provided both options. it was completely moronic to remove that aspect of character creation entirely, they should put in an "advanced character creation" thing so you can shape your "attributes" and skills initially if you choose to do so.

So, out of all that I just wrote, that's what you muster up to comment on?
How very intelligent and worthwhile of you, thanks. It's pretty obvious you have no worthwhile retort.
And I was limited by those choices because I was forced to pick at the beginning of the game my "class" and "star alignment". I can nose choose these things freely, as I play the game.
That is so much more customization gameplay wise. If you can't see that, you're blind.

And you're STILL flaming, with no response to anything I've said.

:spotted owl: this thread is weird.

Of course there is. You play the role, or you play out of character.

If I'm assigned [or create] a Barnie Fief character, then I cannot play him like He-Man or Conan ~Its out of character.

** Here's the thing about it... Barnie (lets keep using him) is a good natured goofball, and instinctively a coward, but can rise to the occasion when its 'deadly?' serious. As a mage he'd be a bumbling one; as a warrior ~he's basically Joxer from the Xena show. As a thief, he's hopeless. So [IMO anyway], his character would get by on the skin of his teeth and never become a mage (unless he started as one). Such a character might not be able to complete the game, but a good RPG would be an enjoyable; and surprising play through.

My last PC in Fallout was named Norbert, and he was a pure negotiator/diplomat jinx; and wound up winning 1500 caps (from 5) at the casino in JunkTown, and http://i271.photobucket.com/albums/jj125/Gizmojunk/proof-1.gif at level 1. :laugh:
(None of the Supermutants will attack him, as he "obviously" belongs there and must be doing something for the Master or the Lou.)

Role playing is about boundaries ~the boundaries of the role. Its also not about "I" its about "They".

Soo....you're conflating your own self-limitations with non-existent in-game limitations? You played the games wrong if you stuck with what your class listed you as just because it listed you as that. I remember many characters of mine that were listed as warriors of varying types where I would pick up the occasional stealth or magic skill if I felt like putting it to use with that character. But wait, you imply that that is IMPOSSIBLE. But oh wait, it isn't.

Here, I'll cap this so you can read it:

JUST BECAUSE YOUR CHARACTER SHEET SAYS "WARRIOR" DOESN'T MEAN YOU CAN'T GO PICK UP MAGIC AND GO CRAZY. YOU MIGHT NOT BE AS GOOD AS A MAGE THAT WAS A MAGE FROM THE START, BUT YOU SHOULDN'T BE. AND SKYRIM DOES THE SAME FRICKIN' THING.

If you can't understand that, you're blind.

it seems to me that you guys are talking about the stats when you say "be who you want to be"........in every elder scrolls game you've never gotten the chance to "be who you want to be" b/c you are either Lord Nevar, The guy who stopped the Oblivion gate or the Dragon born. The series is about the world in which elder scrolls takes place not about you.....even though the world revolves around the character you play.....your character is only skin deep....the way you relate to the world has been a constant through elder scrolls games mostly...that why it's a RPG...a role playing game.....your an actor of sorts playing the role bethesda hands to you and there is only 1 destination but you have multiple modes to get there.......everything else like looks race or talents is trivial at best, skin deep....your character is not your own but that's fine with me.... of course you guys already knew that

I actually find it easier to RPG with no class restrictions.

Edit: Because now i can choose only 1 "major skill" so to say, while I previosuly had to have 7 (in OB).

Speak for yourself
Classes in previous TES games never stopped some people switching from a sword to a bow just because their marksman skill wasn't high enough
They never stopped me from developing my character according to my concept of who they were rather than some stereotype

Sorry, but no. I see words but hear nothing. You're arguing for the sake of arguing at this point because you have nothing of value to contribute. You want titles, you don't get them, so you're supermad and arguing any point you can to vent your anger. Sorry, but I don't buy into that sort of childish gimmick.
Gizmo, on the other hand, is a user worth replying to and conversing with because he's obviously a mature individual with valid points and rebuttals.

As far as I'm concerned Bethesda has made significant improvements to each version of Elder Scrolls and I think the new system will be great. Some people just resist changes. The perk trees allow for you to mold your character the way leveling or classes did in previous games, and the fact that you cannot have all perks maxed out or all the perks will define your character to some extent, adding some replay value. And frankly if they botch it, unless your playing on the xbox, who cares, mods can make it pleasing to anyone.

But really in Oblivion all the class did was determine how fast each skill progressed through usage. In the end a fighter could still have some wicked magic capabilities if you bought all the spells and had your intelligence maxed and then brought up your magic skills. I imagine they will have perks which increase leveling like in fallout, so if you want to be more of a mage you will get the "fast reader" perk or something which allows you to learn magic spells faster and level your magic skills easier.

The more I think about it the more it is going to rock because I don't have to redo my character 10 times to get one that plays right and feels right. The perk trees will allow you to build or define your character as you gain level perks instead of deciding in the beginning and then realizing the dark brotherhood and thieves guilds are way more fun than the mages and fighters guilds but your sneak and lock picking svck but there isnt' much you can do about it at that point you picked a battle mage so now your screwed and you won't be sneaking or lockpicking effectively any time soon. The idea that you can work on what you want and need as you play the game and progress seems way more appealing to me.

HA!!! Arguing for the sake of arguing? I used that very sentence in your other thread about armor (where you could not believe there to be more than 5 armors in the game).

So much for imagination. You really are a hypocrite.

This is entertaining to watch