The fact that TES used classes was never a problem. The problem was always the fact that minors did nothing to contribute to leveling and the grind for attribute multipliers. Beth just doesn't understand how to fix systems. Their solution to a paper cut is to amputate the hand...

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What the OP is saying is that grinds for ideal character builds will happen regardless because players who understand the system will always try to maximize their stats. I;'m not sure that's the case. Or at least, I don't think we have a complete enough picture to say the new system will absolutely still result in stat grinds. The main contributor to stat grinds was the attribute multiplyer and starting levels of major skills. Since all of those things have been removed, it would seem there isn't much room left for a grind.

I definitely didnt like Todds "You can be a Mage, then just switch up and be an archer etc." comment during the E3 demo. Id say the people that just pick up the game and newbs etc. will play like TC says, not really RPing, just doing whatever is practical like it was an action game. Ill be sticking to my characters class though.

And as a TES vet whose played every game, my priority has never been to max stats etc. or in Morrow/OB to grind for multipliers. I just played the game and made the build I wanted (most of which only had their two major attributes maxed, if that).

Please, it's still an RPG, just an Action RPG. Developers aren't confined to making a game strictly RPG or strictly Action Adventure, you can mix elements from both into one game. And stats are still there, they're just called perks. If it bothers you that much, you can just call them stats. That's about as much good as a bandage is on a gouged stomach.

You should have an idea on what to play as before you start your adventure. Unlike Oblivion however, if you realize a few hours down the road that you need a change in your set up, you don't have to restart your game. You can simply begin training in another skill. I honestly don't see how this can't work.

I *think* it's going to be what you're hoping for and the only thing I have to go on is that as Todd was playing the demo, it kept flashing on the screen that his skill at something was going up, just because he was using it. So I don't think you have to watch it too closely but when you select a Perk from the list, if it's like Fallout, you'll see what you might have been able to choose if only a skill had been higher. So then in your next dungeon crawl, you might use that skill more to raise it and get that Perk next time. I think the Perks we'll be interested in will be the ones for the skills we're actually using though so I don't think there's going to be a problem.

:tes:

The only thing thats ever been 'action-y' about ES is that its real time. Saying TES games are action RPGs is really just saying they are in real time.

Im not upset about perks, im upset about the total elimination of leveling control, attributes being removed, and the attitude of what used to be one of the hardest RPG developers ever. They have gone soft. They bought into the hybrid system for more customers





This is the problem, so many developers chasing the other people they forget their core audience, ask Bioware how that worked for them on Dragon Age 2

Make an RPG or dont

The point remains, though, that these previous games did encourage this grind. The goal should have been to encourage playing within your build, rather than forcing the player to forgo stat bonuses just to stay in character.

And then somehow, somewhere classes and attributes got thrown under the bus, too.

If someone wants to cultivate their ideal character build, isn't that still "being who they want to be"?

Amen.


I never felt encouraged or compelled to grind, or max, but different strokes I guess. And I agree that they shouldnt have thrown them under the bus. the problem with almost everything in OB came from level scaling. From inadequate combat, to "stat grinding". That was the only thing they need to get rid of, which they did.

the only good thing I see about this new system is that I can now have less than the determined amount of major skills, since there is none LOL.

I'm hoping that my love of more than one skill will allow me to always level up a perk from one of the skills I like because the requirements will likely stay static as all relative skills increase, however, so you're probably right. I can't wait to find out.

I like the leveling system in Skyrim, but I can't be what I want to be due to the lack of weapon variety. :confused:

I don't mean it on a personal level, but more on a systemic level. Obviously there will be outliers and exceptions. The system rewarded grinds more than it rewarded playing your role. When your you're making a role playing game this is sort of a problem... :/

God forbid they try something new. Screw it, why don't they just drop everything they've done, go old school RPG and make Skyrim a D&D dice rolling, pen and paper game. To hell with the three years they've put into making it a fantastic game so far, lets just do everything the way YOU want it done. Because that's so much better. We're only five months away from the game and yet you and a bunch of other people still find something to [censored] about without even having tried playing the game.

Either buy the damn game or don't.

I dont think using minors should have effected attributes IMO. That would have made sticking to your build more favorable. I also think that minors should have been capped and maybe even have attributes static and picked at the beginning like Fallout.

Well if you find that for some reason your 1handed weapon skill is a lot higher than your marksman skill then your character isnt really a marksman now is he? I have said it before and I will say it again, when you play a true RPG you dont simply create your character at the start of the game but forge him over the adventure, for the most part the choices you make over the course of the game arent defined by your character but more your character is defined by the choices you make, understand?

dude, your original post doesn't make any sense. it's like you threw up words all over the screen...

anyway, i like that classes are gone. i just wonder what we are going to be able to customize about our chars, stat-wise, during character creation. are we going to "tag" skills and distribute points into our stats with a SPECIAL-ish system like in fo3 and fonv?

Its not new!

Its the same Ignore hardcoe fans acquire new fans that has been going on for years

It works sometimes (mass effect 2) and it fails sometimes (dragon age 2)

But to see it in a TES game, it just breaks the spirit

So yes, bring out the hyperbole about my desires, its fine, i have no problem with that

Oh and I have never demanded they change anything, im just expressing my opinion that I am ashamed of their choice to appeal to new gamers over their old fans.

Ill buy the game, but ill still let them know that "i am dissapoint"

While I do believe Centurian is overreacting and twisting what you had to say into a hyberbole and I fully respect your opinion and your right to state it, I just want to address this opinion you seem to have of yourself being a representative of their hardcoe, experienced fanbase. This player and lover of all four Elder Scrolls games really likes what's going on, here. What am I? :shrug:

This whole deal is troubling for me.

First - I've never had any particular problem playing characters who are whoever they are in past games. It requires a bit to learn the ins and outs of the system, but once you've got that figured out, it's easy enough to do just what they're claiming they'll finally make it possible for us to do - just go out and play and let things happen on their own and develop naturally. That's the way I play ALL of my characters already. I just had to learn my way around the games to figure out how to do it.

In spite of, and to some degree because of, the claims made about Skyrim, I'm not confident that I'll be able to do the same in it. In past games, there were any number of ways to approach the game, and it was only a matter of figuring out the way that suited my playstyle. It seems that the goal in this one is to narrow it down to a single way to play the game. That way is reputed to be the same as the way I play anyway, but the problem is that if it doesn't actually live up to that claim, then it doesn't appear that there are going to be any alternatives. And it's that lack of alternatives that bothers me the most.

For instance, through different arrangements of majors and minors, I could control the rate at which a character leveled and the maximum possible level s/he'd reach. By carefully arranging majors and minors and specialization, I could give a character a natural aptitude for one skill and a steep learning curve with another - and not just broad categories such as we might be able to get out of the updated doomstones, but individual skills. Then I could just go out and play the game and let everything take care of itself and it all worked out and the character naturally ended up...... whoever s/he ended up. With Skyrim, from what we know so far at least, there's not going to be any way to set any of that up in advance. I'm going to level at the game's pace and to the game's maximum, and I have no choice in the matter. I'm going to gain skills at the game's pace, regardless of the skill and what I might desire for the character, and there'll be no choice in the matter. Again, the closest we've seen to anything that will address that latter is the updated doomstones, which will apparently affect broad categories of things rather than individual skills. In both cases (leveling and specialization), the best I'm going to be able to do is to manipulate things while I'm playing - to metagame. Ironically enough, that's one of the main complaints about Oblivion, and a thing I always managed to avoid in it just by setting the class up right in the first place. It appears that there's a very real chance that I'll end up having to engage in just the sort of metagaming that others complain about, and that for the first time in a TES game, and that specifically because of changes they're making nominally to make metagaming unnecessary.

Remains to be seen, but this is the aspect of the game that concerns me the most. No matter how you look at it, they're narrowing the range of possible ways to approach the game by getting rid of all of the starting differentiation and hinging everything on skills and perks alone. It might well work out, but there's at least a chance that it won't, and if it doesn't, all the eggs are going to be in one basket....

Mmm... maybe you will, but the system sounds fine to me. I don't think I'll be trying to up skills that I don't use anyway... what's the point? That in effect is role-playing. What you are describing, OP, is the behaviour of a completionist, someone who absolutely, positively must complete or gain every single aspect of the game. I am not like that... so I will play how I want to play, and Skyrim will allow me to do that seamlessly. Or, at least, I hope it will.

If you use a sword and neglect your bow, then yes, your marksman skill won't be high. If you want your marksman skill to be high (ie. if you want to be a marksman) then you use your bow, it goes up, you level up. It's really the same system, only our classes aren't defined by the start.

Also, it sounded like a good idea on paper, and they developed their game around it, it obviously works if they're still using it. The game is pretty much made, and if it was a good idea that wouldn't work, they wouldn't be at this stage of development with it still in the game.

Haha, I bet the OP wasn't exepcting all these replies that are against him.

And I like Bethesda's new approach. My reason? Meh, too lazy to type it all on an Ipod, so just read the other comments.

Then what the hell were they thinking when they thought up level scaling?

That's not at all whats going on. They aren't making it "streamlined" as some people like to call it, and they aren't ignoring hardcoe fans. They are simply trying something new. Attributes were practically worthless and didn't really add any immersion into the game other than "My strength is at 100. I hit hard and I can carry lots of stuff. Yay." I didn't pay attention to them in MW or OB other than to add points to them. This system might work better because it skips the idiocy of deciding to add 3 points to intelligence or 2 points to willpower.

I'm indifferent on classes as well because they were shades of grey as well. A thief could be an assassin as well, and a warrior could be a battlemage just as easily. I didn't care that the game "forced" you to pick your skills, mainly because I knew what I wanted to do and would just customize a class. This makes the decision to be a thief or assassin much easier. Some days I felt like stealing a bunch of stuff, other days I wanted to shank someone while they slept. I can be a mage, but then decide half way through that I have a passion for making pincushions out of people, so I start leveling my marksman up. It won't be easy since I just started, but after enough time and practice, I will be the best (just like in real life :celebration: ).

I never said you demanded anything, thats just the vibe you and everyone else who complain about something you haven't even played yet.