In Morrowind and Oblivion All the races began with a different set of atribute stats, Bethesda has said that they have put work into making the races unique, why would they put work into making them look unique only to give them all equal stats at the begining of the game. I am sure that they will all have different starting attributes but what I am not sure of is if they will be player controled at level up like in Oblivion or use a system of automatic leveling up when our caracter levels up.
I would guess that Attributes will auto level this time around (if I use magic to achieve that level my intel and will level up) and our level of Health, Magic, amd Fatigue is the only part that we will directly control ourselves but we shall see

I for one, want an attribute system similar to D&D, all stats limited to maybe 20, make it hard to gain stats naturally or boosting by equipment.

Spurious hypothesis: Their "answer" to spreadsheets to ensure +5/+5/+5 is to hide the statistics and automatically raise whichever ones you get the highest bonus in. Knowing the outcry this is going to cause, they're hiding the attribute screens until release.

(Hey, ya never know...)

There are reasons to keep them in. The most forceful, to my mind, is the role they played as governing collections of skills. For instance, suppose you have a high one-handed weapon skill, but then you choose to start using two-handed weapons, but your skill in those weapons is pretty low. It seems somewhat odd that if you're really good at using a longsword, and deal lots of damage with it, that as soon as you start using a two-handed claymore you'll deal a lot less damage. The role of a Strength attribute comes in useful as a general contribution to melee damage, irrespective of which weapon you use, or which particular melee weapon skill you are using.

One reply to this is that Strength is just playing a middleman role, and could be eliminated. But I'm not sure how that would work. How else would you make your damage with a two-handed weapon increase, if you are only using one-handed weapons? Well, you could have some correlation between skills: as you increase your one-handed skill, then your two-handed skill will also increase passively, albeit at a much slower rate. The problem with this is that you might end up leveling skills you don't want to increase, which could create problems with specialisation. Another option would be to just let your damage done be calculated from your highest melee weapon skill. But that doesn't work either, so long as we've got the Oblivion style combat where swinging always hits (so long as you are within range and facing the enemy). There would be little point of choosing one-handed over two-handed, if whichever one you chose you could do equal damage with the weapons from the other skill. The last option is just to ask the player to rationalise what's going on: that you are doing much less damage is because you are less skilled with the weapon - you swing less accurately, or slightly more slowly, or whatever. This is a little hard to swallow when the animations are pretty much the same between highly skilled two-handed weapon wielders, and low skilled two-handed weapon wielders.

What makes you think there'd be an outcry over that? That sounds like a GCD system, where attributes increase passively as you increase the skills they govern. That was a pretty popular mod.

Attributes should probably be tweaked. I wouldn't really mind if they were axed, but I don't think Elder Scrolls fans are quite ready for that yet...

How about instead of leveling them up individually, they level on their own according to what skills you increase? It fits in perfectly with the Elder Scrolls mantra of "get better by doing." (If that makes sense )

But in GCD, you still had attributes. You could still see them, watch them grow, choose which skills to concentrate in to make certain attributes rise. The arithmetic was behind the scenes, but I still knew that using speechcraft would raise my personality. I still knew what my personality was. Make personality invisible, and you lose that much more control over your character development. Just how are you supposed to know how charming or attractive your character is? Speechcraft alone? Has that entire aspect of the game been erased? Doesn't sound good to me. Aren't certain checks in the game done off your attributes? Peoples disposition and whatnot? Are certain races just more charming than others, in essence, just stereotypes? It all seems so arbitrary.

How would they do something like encumbrance? Would it be a static thing, based off race, with no chance to make it higher? Would it just get higher as you went up levels? Based off what skill? What skill makes sense?

This is still a role-playing game, right? People do want to role-play? Or is it really turning into some shallow shadow of one?

Why would I care if they are in or not? There are more important things to worry about than attributes, if they're in then they're in, if not then that doesn't bother me. if the game is fun to play then what does it matter?

Personally i think it's a little sad that they have removed them. It just means that are characters won't be as individual as they were in past games. I know that they have added perks to choose from, but that still seems like a poor substitute. I think of the perks a little bit like upgrades in COD multiplayer or something. They don't really affect how you view your character from a base level. I e this guy is strong, this guy is fast. SO yes i hope that they are still in or we will be playing a poor substitute for a RPG. Fun yes, RPG no.

I don't know when RPG suddenly became an abbreviation for "Arbitrary numbers and statistics". It's a roleplaying game, it should be fairly obvious what the intention is. Numbers are not roleplaying, they are a gameplay mechanic that's helpfull, but not necessary. Do you really need to see some arbitrary number to feel like your warrior is strong? Why not just make him big and burly and have him fight people with some big weapon or something? Does the massive man with a giant axe just look weak without a number confirming it?

Numbers and stats have nothing to do with roleplaying.

You need some way to quantify what your characters abilities are, a way that makes sense in the game, otherwise, everyone's characters are less unique. Every one of your characters are less unique, making replay value lower. There's significantly less room for creativity without the numbers, because the numbers make your characters abilities mean something.

Regardless of attributes, one question I have. If you don't choose skills in the beginning, how well do your characters use weapons/magic/stealth in early levels? I guess they could still give racial bonus' to skills, but what if I want to play a Nord archer? Am I going to have to start from square one? Or is everyone already going to be at level 50 skill-wise, and able to do EVERYTHING fairly well from the beginning?

As I see it, this isn't an issue. Nobody goes around saying "I have 8 strength, let me help you with that." But certain people are stronger then others. Immersion on moving day isn't broken when some big guy lifts the big screen without first making his stats clear.

So lets look at the races. They are seperated by looks and culture, yes. But from a gameplay standpoint, it's the Stats that matter.

When everything is make-believe and you are RPing in you're mom's basemant, knowing your Orc has 8 strength is pivotal in calculating all the different things that said Orc can do with said strength as it relates to the context of your made up world. This, however, is NOT true of a modern action RPG. Or, I should say, it doesn't need to be. With physics and skill driven "invisible" attributes, we can all level up and all get better at whatever we choose to do through use, not self-chosen numbers.

So an Orc just IS stronger then a Bosmer. From day one. He hits harder but moves and swings slower. That Bosmer, while weaker can still decide to focus on warrior related skills and become formidible indeed, but not moreso then an Orc that chose to do the same. If, on the other hand, that Orc focused on becoming the greatest Mage his people had ever known, well then perhaps he would not be so strong as his Warrior kin at around level 50. You don't need to see an 8 on his stat page to deliver that experience.

This is true of all the Attributes. Endurance has found a home in Fatigue leveling. Willpower has likewise been made redundant by the choice of gaining more Magika. Some races would be faster and more agile then others but you don't need to say by how much. It will be apparent just playing the different species.

Your character has High Intelligence you say? Well who says that? I say solve the puzzles and prove it. Beyond that, dialogue can be effected by skills with the logic being that a Master Blacksmith would likely have something very intelligent to say about blacksmithing but if asked about lockpicking, perhaps he is not so knowlegable. In fact, skills alone retain everything we needed from Attributes, for as if you'll recall, every skill has always filtered back into an Attribute. High Charisma? Decent Speechraft, nice clothes and a bribe or charm spell should do the trick.

Perks will then shore up everything else, such as a Lucky SOB perk or other boosts to skills and gameplay.


We all want immersion... THIS is the road. Big strong characters are big and strong. Nimble little characters are little and nimble. Both are Dovahkiin and have limitless (remember the soft level cap?) potential but each race has it's own stengths and weaknesses that relate not just to their level one self but to their entire race. It will take focus and effort to overcome those shortcomings, not just out of context stats boosts that were chosen, not earned.

The gameplay will remain the same, better, in fact. All that is lost is the spreadsheet management aspect. So what, you don't get to look at that little 8... Go out and hit something. You'll feel the difference.





Finally

That all sounds good on paper CP, but I'm not sold on the idea that my Bosmer warrior will never be as good as your orc warrior. Placing that much emphasis on the races stereotypes them. And a warriors skill doesn't just come from strength. Agility plays a factor, and endurance. How do you simulate that?

I believe attributes are in, but remember it is still many months before completion. Most likely they are still testing and balancing various combinations of attributes to see which works best with the skills and perks. So, until they are ready to roll out what the final attributes will be (and how they will be balanced), they are probably going to keep quiet.

The forums are really unforgiving when gamesas tells us one thing, and makes changes before the game is launched.

Storm

Oh, I agree. Which is where the skills come in. An Orc can swing any weapon with force but to do so with skill requires... Wait for it... Skill. So let's give him One-Handed weapon skill. Ok, now he is even better. He still swings with force but now also with focus. If he chooses to specialize in Maces, then take the mace perks and you have a Strong Orc who is good with one handed weapons (He can swing two-handed weapons with force but...) and especially good with Maces. Now let's say you want some speed to go with that strength. Start with Stamina. Then I'm certain a Dodge perk would be useful, if chosen. Or one that made you run faster. Whose to say no such thing exists? I don't need to offer a number to offer a boost.

Now let's say he became that mage... Sure, he can swing hard but without any focus in weapons skill he is LESS skilled. Not less strong. His choosing Magika every level and not Stamina means that Ogrub The Magnificent doesn't have quite the endurance of his peers.


So your Bosmer is offended. He balks rasicm and insists he can kick as much ass as anything Boethiah crapped out. Well then he should choose Health and Stamina over Magika, for starters. I don't care what size you are, you want strength, you train for it. Maybe this particular Bosmer is offended by the Bow and Arrow stereotype and chooses instead to focus on One AND two-handed Weapons. He gets stronger, more skilled by the day and the days don't end. There is a soft cap after all. He can level his skills up to his beedy-eyed content. So if you are playing the game only that one time. You'll have a skilled enough warrior to feel you played your role well but if you go back for that second 200 hours and choose a new race, well a whole new balance is opened up to you and you again have the choice to embrace your natural talents or defy the odds. Times that by ten and you are not suffocating the game by hiding Attributes. You are opening up a whole new world.

Removing the Numbers from the pause menu does not remove the roleplaying from the game. If anything, it's the opposite. You'll spend less time planning a role and more time actually playing it. Because at the end of the day, Orcs were always stronger then Bosmer. Always. It was in the numbers. Now it can be in his biceps. It's six of one or a half dozen of the other.

I'm still waiting to see why Attributes will "definitely" be in the game.... Because nothing you provided is any more conclusive than the evidence that suggests Attributes will not be returning.

If it was up to me I would make SPECIAL stats that (almost) never changes, it's not driven by race and you won't assign points to it on level up, only during creation. Racial abilities may be handled with pre-picked perks and/or user selected perks that fits that race. SPECIAL would not be equal to FO3 though, but:
Strenght - Same old.
Personality/Presence - Charisma in FO3. Presence covers personality, attractiveness, charm, and leadership. Perception doesn't make sense in TES.
Ego - From Hero system, but basically covers Willpower.
Constitution - Was Endurance.
Intelligence - Same old.
Agility - Same old, but speed is now a fully derived (and invisible) attribute from many factors, which we don't need to see the value of.
Luck - Same old.

Not gone... hidden

:ninja:

Have you ever tried to make a warrior character use magic when its willpower and intelligence are both below 40? It's freaking hard.

Honestly, I wouldn't worry if they came out right now and said there were no attributes in the game.

Attributes, while conceptually interesting (because it's nice to imagine your character is "this intelligent" or "this strong,") in function are ultimately just one more stat that contributes to how your skills act. They could easily do away with them entirely, and just have your skill level by itself determine how much damage/chance/whatever you do when using a given skill.

Then your character level by itself, or in combination with which perks you choose, could determine your max HP, magicka, and stamina.

Everything that can be accomplished with attributes can be done without them too, in my opinion. They are a means to an end, not the end itself. And not having them will not ruin my ability to roleplay. It will just mean that my roleplaying will just be done through actual roleplay, rather than through seeing some numbers on a list.

(Rivendell sheathes his sword and bows to Clark Parker)

I have no idea what Bethesda is up to, but they're a good company, and they make great games. Your posts have helped me to visualize what they might be aiming at, and Storm is speaking wisdom. Hopefully this is a battle that never needs to be fought. Peace.

As far as i wish to see attributes really well designed, with the MMo trend and Action games trend.
Its more likely that attribute will be scraqed off, and we will have messages like: you reached lvl 10 you gained (again and as ever +2 str,+1 int, +1const, etc. The problem with that kind of approach is the fact that you must have preset classes.

As for those not understanding attributes, how would calculate how much weight you can carry ? Perks ? Class ? lvl ?
How would calculate if your character is smart enought to make this or that question ? Class ? Perk ? lvl?
How much time you can run without tiring with XX kilos or pound on you ? Class ? perks ? lvl ?
How naturally resistant are you to diseases, how fast do you heal compared to others ? Class ? perks ? lvl ?
For those who doesnt understand attributes attributes are the base of skills, skills without attributes are meaningless.

As for the perk system installed a la Blizzard: 1 perk per lvl its absolutely shamefull and cheezy lazy solution. Its the easy way to have a bad excuse to insert shouts (if shouts are perk), or to make the player advance in armor and weaponry.
Oblivion system was awfull because perks where at "stepping stones" and the in between where meaningless.

So instead of doing them meaning full so you really would have a reason to increase / specialize, strenght and const to warrior for example I, and this is my feeling, think they are going the opposite way. Make a system that will work at knee jerk, ho i passed level i suddenly automaticly without ever having working to it know something new/is able to learn something new at the trainer out of the blues.
What make me say that ?
perks per lvl + Shouts + no armor skill + no word on atributes + stupid perk system on Oblivion....

I think bethesda is having issues on game design, especially attributes....
A RPG system is an integration of imputs. Screw one imput and you screw the system balance.
Bethesda instead of trying to bring balance seems to be trying to create a new system with old molds.
Its like puting a ferrari y2k engine on a 1930 beetle car, final result is something unsatisfactory or an damn accident.
What they had to do is bring the old concept up tp date altoghether, the engine is still an explosion engine, but now it has more power, can have a 6th overdrive, larger tires, reinforced chassi, Xeon lights and whatnot.
Improving is easyer than reinventing, and TES public want improvements not a new game with an old stamped name on it.
Right now there are clear hit and miss in Bethesda proposals, and the result altought still very nebulous is an expected: WTF?

Another point is that A setting and a forst person view doesnt make a RPG. Or all FPS , any Need for speed or mS flight simulator is an RPG.
Unfortunatly thats what Tood seems to think about RPG on his interview, and he gives himself to criticize Jrpg when his driving right in theyr direction with those sequencial dumbing down.
For all the info gathered up to now on various reviews, Skyrim is already more watered down streamline game than Oblivion, classic RPG wise.
On a sidenote, looking at Arena or Daggerfall its clear inspiration was more toward more complex RPG, Rolemaster/Rolemerp kind as examples, would it have been DND it would look like Diablo1.

how??they had alot to do with your character.in fact it could make or break your character.if your a warrior then level your strength and endurance a good amount first.attributes are part of the rpg experince

Well, if attributes aren't in, then we won't be getting those messages.

Or perhaps you mean: attributes are in, but they will increase passively as you increase your skills. For example, as you use one-handed and two-handed weapons, and increase your one-handed and two-handed weapon skills, your Strength attribute will automatically increase. If this is what you have in mind, then I'm not sure why you think that characters will get exactly the same attribute increases at each level. It seems to me like characters could increase different attributes at each level, provided they are increasing different skills. It's also not clear why you think this requires preset classes (if characters had exactly the same attribute increases at each level, then that would seem to require present classes, but since, as I said, we're probably not going to get the same attribute increases at each level, then that reason doesn't apply).



These are all good questions. But as many people have pointed out, and as you have noticed yourself, there are other ways to calculate those things. And one thing to bear in mind is that these are suggestions people have come up with just from thinking about them for a few minutes. Bethesda have had years to think about this. So I'm inclined to give them a chance to see if they can come up with a nice way of handling encumbrance, disease resistance, etc. without attributes.



I'm not sure I completely understand the contrast here. Are you saying that the skills + perks system, where you get to choose a new perk at each level up, makes specialisation and leveling up less rewarding and less meaningful than a system with skills + attributes? To be honest, I don't really see attributes, by themselves, as making specialisation and leveling up more rewarding and meaningful. It seems to me to depend upon how those attributes matter for your character's abilities - being able to carry more stuff, be more disease resistant, and so on. That's what matters for increasing your character's abilities, and that could be achieved without using attributes (or, at least, that's what we might find out).