Why I think Skyrim will fail as a "sandbox" game. : V - Skyrim

» Thu May 19, 2011 11:12 am

Of the four first mods on TESNexus for Oblivion, two of them removed fast travel and the "compass radar".

People hate this kind of stuff, and I'm one of them, and we have very good reasons for hating it. If Bethesda are blind or deaf and haven't even thought of including an option to "fix" this, then mods will fix it for sure.
I know I'll still buy Skyrim, but I wouldn't ever play it unless I have an option (either by default or by mod) to get rid of those friggen hand-held things that acts like if I'm a 10-year old mindless robot that can't think for him/herself.

I don't hate it, and I'm not 10 years old.
Infact I just find it tedious when I have to go and speak to a person, and I know the town in which they live, but not their house. So the only way to find where they are is to walk from door to door seeing who owns the house. I'm sure I'm not the only person who feels this way. The fact is, you don't have to have it on, and alot of people can be drastically put off a game because it expects you to trudge around a town for sometime when all you want to do is get on with a quest. Although, with that said I agree that it shouldn't be impossible to do a quest without the compass. Sufficient guidance should be given to manage without.

» Thu May 19, 2011 7:02 am

Really?

I can tell, the problem is not with the game, it's with you. It's not the game's fault you just cannot look over your quests and change them depending the area you're in. Or, I don't know, why don't you just ignore the quests and just walk around?
You don't HAVE to follow that arrow you know...

Also, how does landmarks ruin exploration? Heck, it tend to help it for me. I see an undiscovered ruin on the compass nearby and I instantly go that way to... you know EXPLORE it. And how would this make it any different than suddenly marking the map the moment you enter the explored area?
At most lower the distance those appear on your compass...

» Thu May 19, 2011 3:21 am

For people debating the 'turning quest markers on/off' option, a 'no HUD' option has already been confirmed in the first game informer article, and I would assume it would be included it that....

.....That is only an assumption though, but it would be pretty weird calling something 'no HUD' only to have some big glaring quest and location markers.

» Wed May 18, 2011 11:38 pm

I never really thought about how negatively the compass markers and pinpoint map beacons effected my gaming experience until I read this thread: http://www.gamesas.com/index.php?/topic/1194639-the-problem-i-had-with-fallout-1-and-2/

I ultimately realized that Oblivion, FO3, and FNV are horrible "exploration/sandbox" games due to the inclusion of those features. I get a "tunnel vision" effect when I see those glowing beacons and like a moth to a flame I forgo all else and blindly race toward the next "flagpole" instead of investigating and exploring. Fallout 1 & 2 did a much better job of this by giving lots of clues as to where I should go without grabbing my hand and pulling me along. It takes a bit of acclimation to become used to actually investigating and exploring, but for the people who get over the initial system shock the experience is more rewarding beyond measure.

I guess the short of it is: I will not buy Skyrim until I find mods that remove the compass beacon and somehow turn the map markers into a vague area instead pinpoint precision. Please contribute to this discussion with ideas that add to or elaborate the arguments for or against these game features.

i never thought chuck bartowski could say such ridiculous things :nope:

» Thu May 19, 2011 3:42 am

For people debating the 'turning quest markers on/off' option, a 'no HUD' option has already been confirmed in the first game informer article, and I would assume it would be included it that....

.....That is only an assumption though, but it would be pretty weird calling something 'no HUD' only to have some big glaring quest and location markers.

I thought they just said that the HUD wouldn't be visible unless you needed it. (Like, the HP/Mana indicators don't show unless they're diminished, etc). And they said that there would be a "compass" - which, of course, doesn't say whether the compass will just be NESW, or will have POI indicators, or quest markers, etc.

» Wed May 18, 2011 10:22 pm

For people debating the 'turning quest markers on/off' option, a 'no HUD' option has already been confirmed in the first game informer article, and I would assume it would be included it that....

.....That is only an assumption though, but it would be pretty weird calling something 'no HUD' only to have some big glaring quest and location markers.

There is no HUD option as far as what has been confirmed that I know of.
I think the compass has been said to be on the screen at all times, while the health bars and such will only appear when you lose health and such.

» Thu May 19, 2011 8:05 am

There is no HUD option as far as what has been confirmed that I know of.
I think the compass has been said to be on the screen at all times, while the health bars and such will only appear when you lose health and such.

I'm pretty sure I remember reading the exact same thing. The compass will remain visible at all times.

Also, I just want to echo the idea that the problem with quest markers is that as long as you have them, there is no need whatsoever for the developer to actually give you directions in the dialogue or quest description. That means that turning off the quest markers or setting it to a different quest leaves you with absolutely no way of knowing where to go. So simply turning them off doesn't really work.

» Wed May 18, 2011 11:02 pm

I thought they just said that the HUD wouldn't be visible unless you needed it. (Like, the HP/Mana indicators don't show unless they're diminished, etc). And they said that there would be a "compass" - which, of course, doesn't say whether the compass will just be NESW, or will have POI indicators, or quest markers, etc.

Oh actually yeah that might be it.... better decrease the size of the font...

» Wed May 18, 2011 7:41 pm

Didn't they say the HUD can be turned off or something?

Sounds good then... Can't wait until I start asking where to find the next equivalent of dwemer cube though/

Oh man I looked sooooo long for that thing and actually had to cheat to find it despite it actually being in quite an obvious spot lol

» Wed May 18, 2011 9:30 pm

Good luck trying to find quests without any sort of description of the area given by NPCs...

I remember when people always complained about how they couldn't even go southwest until they reached a hill... or a dwemer cube.

That bloody cube was tiny as [censored]. Same colour as everything else too.

Spent hours looking for the [censored].

» Wed May 18, 2011 7:39 pm

The problem is not in ignoring the compass markers it is in the fact that a game about free roaming/exploration has them force fed to you. Does that not contradict the premise of the game design? I should edit my OP to clarify my line of thought.

» Thu May 19, 2011 6:15 am

"Nothing" can make me not buy the game. I feel your pain, because it is something I also want to see fixed.

Can I say Morrowind did it right, without starting a war? (The answer should be, yes.)

» Thu May 19, 2011 3:49 am

...The game isn't even out yet.

» Thu May 19, 2011 4:28 am

The problem is not in ignoring the compass markers it is in the fact that a game about free roaming/exploration has them force fed to you. Does that not contradict the premise of the game design? I should edit my OP to clarify my line of thought.

No, you still have to get there, and most of the time a straight path is not an option.

And again I ask, how is this any different than just being told where you have to go?

» Wed May 18, 2011 11:21 pm

I'm pretty sure I remember reading the exact same thing. The compass will remain visible at all times.

Also, I just want to echo the idea that the problem with quest markers is that as long as you have them, there is no need whatsoever for the developer to actually give you directions in the dialogue or quest description. That means that turning off the quest markers or setting it to a different quest leaves you with absolutely no way of knowing where to go. So simply turning them off doesn't really work.

Exactly.
And I honestly think directions are improved a lot now, and in many different ways. We know NPCs can now even personally guide you and point out the direction and such, which is really good.
Also, there would be not as big of a need of a "magic radar compass" if environments are more unique, which they now are confirmed to be.

And for the actual option to toggle it off...? We don't know yet, but we can only hope. It's a really really intrusive thing in the whole gameplay and a lot of people really hate it, for very good reasons.
Best way would be to have a toggle, as long as there's good "base directions" as mentioned above. Factually, would be such a big thing to not to implement? No. I bet Bethesda's programmers could code it in on an afternoon or so.

I personally don't care about the toggle for myself, as I could probably mod it myself by adding transparent textures in a few minutes or so...
But I do care about the console players that can't mod, and they contribute to big numbers of the TES-players.

» Thu May 19, 2011 4:37 am

I agree with the OP and it's not hard once you get it right

» Thu May 19, 2011 11:25 am

After experiencing the compass and quest markers in Oblivion, I wondered how it could be changed into an interesting gameplay dynamic.

Wouldn't it be great if you only got the quest compass after you had accumulated enough information on the quest? So you waltz into Shantytown and they pool together their meager coins and hire you to kill the roving bandits killing their trade routes.
How do you know where the bandits are?
Even if they told you "the bandits are in the Cave of Woe", how do you know where that is?

So how do you get this information? Either...
1) You've explored enough already to know exactly what they're talking about
2) You're Speech Crafty enough to convince someone in town to tell you where to go
3) You're wealthy enough to pay for the information, and maybe with your Mercantile skill, you get a better price.

Once you have enough information, the quest compass becomes available for that quest... leading you exactly where you need to go.

Now you've instantly made 2 skills more useful, increased character immersion, and made a spoiler-ish game mechanic much more interesting (and less spoiler-ish),.

» Thu May 19, 2011 2:34 am

Sorry, no HUD option is not confirmed, I was wrong...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vH0FsT1I5D0

» Thu May 19, 2011 2:32 am

A sandbox game is a game that drops you into a big ole sandbox, and gives you a variety of tools in which to play with. The compass is one such tool if you wish to use it, so no it is not counter-productive to the game design. Its just another tool to use if you so wish.

If such an optional feature bothers you so, get a mod to eliminate it from the game.

» Thu May 19, 2011 10:48 am

After experiencing the compass and quest markers in Oblivion, I wondered how it could be changed into an interesting gameplay dynamic.

Wouldn't it be great if you only got the quest compass after you had accumulated enough information on the quest? So you waltz into Shantytown and they pool together their meager coins and hire you to kill the roving bandits killing their trade routes.
How do you know where the bandits are?
Even if they told you "the bandits are in the Cave of Woe", how do you know where that is?

So how do you get this information? Either...
1) You've explored enough already to know exactly what they're talking about
2) You're Speech Crafty enough to convince someone in town to tell you where to go
3) You're wealthy enough to pay for the information, and maybe with your Mercantile skill, you get a better price.

Once you have enough information, the quest compass becomes available for that quest... leading you exactly where you need to go.

Now you've instantly made 2 skills more useful, increased character immersion, and made a spoiler-ish game mechanic much more interesting (and less spoiler-ish),.

I like these ideas and agree they help 'flesh' out the game more while removing the obtrusiveness.

» Thu May 19, 2011 1:51 am

A sandbox game is a game that drops you into a big ole sandbox, and gives you a variety of tools in which to play with. The compass is one such tool if you wish to use it, so no it is not counter-productive to the game design. Its just another tool to use if you so wish.

If such an optional feature bothers you so, get a mod to eliminate it from the game.

The compass is printed on the screen permanently, it's not optional. And what if one plays on the console?

This is where the problem essentially lies, and where Bethesda really should act.

I'd say there's a good chance for quest markers and compass icons and whatnot to be optional, or even completely out.
Why?
- Directions are confirmed to be better. NPCs actually can come with you and show you the direction now.
- Environments are more unique. It should be easier to give out directions now and easier to find them... than in, for instance, Morrowind, which practically was a huge labyrinth of hills everywhere (and Oblivion for the famous bland forests everywhere).
- Morrowind transportation system and Oblivion fast travel are both in the game. Bethesda is more open for compromises.
- Bethesda seem to have rethought a lot of things completely... like how we level for instance.

» Thu May 19, 2011 8:29 am

hope there gonna be a setting or something. Though todd said they have said that the the things like health and items are gonna be hidden till needed so, maybe we aren't gonna have magic marker, and maybe we mark stuff down uses the new map

» Thu May 19, 2011 5:12 am

The compass is printed on the screen permanently, it's not optional. And what if one plays on the console?

totally optional for PC and console players.

just click on a different quest.

if you don't want to see the marker, don't make it your "active quest"

I enjoy the hell out of Oblivion playing just like this. Sure it would be great if there were a few cool "navigational" quests where somebody says, there is a cave east of a waterfall with a black rock, etc., but even without those kind of quests it's no problem.

I just explore the entire world, gradually I uncover all the locations.

» Thu May 19, 2011 8:07 am

totally option for PC and console players.

just click on a different quest. if you don't want to see the marker, don't make it your "active quest"

I enjoy the hell out of Oblivion playing just like this. Sure it would be great if there were a few cool "navigational" quests where somebody says, there is a cave east of a waterfall with a black rock, etc., but even without those kind of quests it's no problem.

I just explore the entire world, gradually I uncover all the locations.

What if you only have one quest?
And is it really a good solution to force us to take multiple quests at the same time, and then click on the other one for every single quest, just so that we could play the first quest without any intrusive elements that tells you where to go like, what I would call it, a 10-year old mindless robot?

That's a TERRIBLE way of calling it optional.
And, btw, compass icons aren't optional. They're there permanently, forever and ever, and that's a huge problem as well for a lot of people.

» Thu May 19, 2011 8:25 am

Didnt they already say you have option to remove it, or that your hud stays clear all the time except for when your health takes a hit ? I thought I remember them saying something along those lines, dont really remember, as It does not really affect me, as I am some1 who explores my immediate surroundings all the time, and almost always winds up with like a hundred unfinished quests, due to my exploring, so I must not be drawn into following thos markers all the time.