I never really thought about how negatively the compass markers and pinpoint map beacons effected my gaming experience until I read this thread: http://www.gamesas.com/index.php?/topic/1194639-the-problem-i-had-with-fallout-1-and-2/

EDIT: For the people slinging insults, I knew there was a problem with the FO3 and Oblivion quest tracking system, but I never associated it with the context of hurting the experience of exploration. It is not as though I thought everything was perfect before I read the thread.

I ultimately realized that Oblivion, FO3, and FNV are horrible "exploration/sandbox" games due to the inclusion of those features. I get a "tunnel vision" effect when I see those glowing beacons and like a moth to a flame I forgo all else and blindly race toward the next "flagpole" instead of investigating and exploring. Fallout 1 & 2 did a much better job of this by giving lots of clues as to where I should go without grabbing my hand and pulling me along. It takes a bit of acclimation to become used to actually investigating and exploring, but for the people who get over the initial system shock the experience is more rewarding beyond measure.

EDIT: Yes, FO 1&2 required a lot of investigation, but it was not super hard to figure things out, especially for the main quest (multiple NPCs in every location gave hints on where to go next). There was no real mandate saying you had to do anything other than explore (FO1 did have that darn time limit for the water chip, but that was far from the end of the game. It was up to the player to decide where to "explore" for new clues... kind of what you would want in a sandbox game right? In Oblivion and FO3 you were given specific locations... and you would NOT receive any helpful info if you decided to go anywhere but where the main quest dictated.

I guess the short of it is: I will not buy Skyrim until I find mods that remove the compass beacon and somehow turn the map markers into a vague area instead pinpoint precision. Please contribute to this discussion with ideas that add to or elaborate the arguments for or against these game features.

EDIT: The games are touted for their "free to roam/exploration" and yet they force feed you beacons on the compass. The compass markers for locations you have not yet discovered are another such feature that pulls my attention from exploring to "follow the marker". I have no problem with unexplored locations being put on my map when I get near them (not the explored/fast travel markers) like the way the "unexplored location" markers that you would receive after talking to people about places. Sort of like how daedric shrines, some forts, and caves were marked on the map. In FO 3 and NV the "unexplored location" markers would not be placed on the map if you wander near them yet the compass would have a beacon leading you there (pretty sure it was that way in Oblivion too). The map marker would give me a general idea of where I should explore next, but having to follow a compass beacon tends to lead toward following a specific path straight to the destination.

In short, I would much prefer unexplored locations being indicated on my map instead of using the compass beacon system used in Oblivion, FO3, and FNV. Again, the beacons will inflict "tunnel vision" on me at times and keep me from actually exploring.

Good luck trying to find quests without any sort of description of the area given by NPCs...

I remember when people always complained about how they couldn't even go southwest until they reached a hill... or a dwemer cube.

WTF??

If you want to explore... just choose a direction and walk in it. Why does quest guiding reduce the ability to explore?!

Todd Howard has confirmed that NPCs will give you directions this time round. And have we even seen any proof of a quest marker yet?

I just used to mark a quest I didn't want to do as active and then went off exploring.

There's also the "places of interest" markers on your compass. Instead of looking for these places, you "magically" already have a sense of where they are. It removes any need for thinking on the part of the player. Yeah I want to find interesting places to explore, but let me find them please.

And yet the OP will buy it.

:shrug:

Seriously. Get a general direction and just go that way. Compass markers aren't for you to watch and walk at. Look at where it is and then walk in the world until you remember that you have an objective to accomplish. I do not have this problem at all. You probably didn't "realize" you had this problem until you read a very convincing post on it.

That is all.

Then you should never make your quest the "active quest." As long as you don't do that then you won't get a marker.

Sounds good then... Can't wait until I start asking where to find the next equivalent of dwemer cube though/

I'm more concerned with the world being worth exploring to negate the map markers, but I think they will accomplish this.

pick up a random quest you have no intention of doing anytime in the near future and select that quest as "active"

problem solved

That was one bad example. 95% of the time I never had any trouble finding things/places in Morrowind.

I have never encountered another open world sandbox game as fun to explore as Oblivion. I have a few playthroughs of hundreds of hours each. My latest playthrough with a heavily modded version (150+ mods), is approaching 350 hours and I haven't even touched the main quest or entered any Oblivion gates yet.

Haven't encountered anything remotely approaching this type of open world experience with any other game. It's very easy to avoid quest markers. Simply don't click on the quest you are working on. Problem solved. I go about exploring the entire land of Tamriel, collecting various side quests and walking or riding a horse back and forth to the various towns and settlements.

As far as Morrowind goes, so far I have only dipped my feet in the waters, but I'm certainly looking forward to installing some mods and sinking my teeth into it as well.

They can easily take off map markers for undiscovered locations. Seeing those hollowed triangles in FO3 and icons in Oblivion was disappointing. You almost can't help but blindly march towards them, and it does kill the sense of discovery. Once you find the location, I have no problem with it being part of the compass. For quests, NPC's giving general directions to locations should be enough. Points of interest unrelated to quests should be discovered on their own, not automatically like the new-style compass forces it. When I walk around Skyrim for the first time, I want my compass to be nice and empty (outside of the 5 major cities perhaps), and let the game leave it to me to explore.

The developers should simply add the ability to turn off map markers, it would take all of 5 seconds to programme in such a small option.

I also agree they are crap as I like to work to find what I am looking for, however they should probably be included for the people who haven't got the patience to try and follow direction from an NPC or book.

I do not however think they are that bad to warrant not buying the game at all however... that is a bit extreme, unless it's fable of course any excuse will do fornot buying that crap!

I also hated how in oblivion it would say you have discover "whatever location" when I cant even see bloody the entrance yet. I found loads of caves accidently because as I was running past on completly the other side of the rock it was hidden in it would say location discovered. Thanks for that because I didn't discover it you told me it was near, I wouldn't have otherwise known so thanks for treating me like a kid. Also on the compass you could be a mile away from a ruin or whatever and it appears before you are even within eyeshot of it, for locations you have discovered this ain't a problem because you know it's there you've been there but for places you haven't discovered yet it's [censored]. Things should only appear on your map when you are within the distane needed to activate the door about a foot. Rant over

You wont by skyrim unless you can remove the compass/quest marker? Wow... your selection of rpgs must be incredibly limited, because most rpgs have some way of walking you through each quest, even the great ones. All the RPGs from Rockstar, Bethesda and Bioware have easy to find quests. Unless you are playing on a computer idk how you enjoy any of the good games coming out these days.

You could just choose not to make a quest "active," or you could ignore your radar and just wander about. Really it's all in your head. If you want to explore, you will

I never really did either as I used the minimap and followed the regular compass in morrowind until I reached the landmarks and pretty much steal everything not nailed down

Of the four first mods on TESNexus for Oblivion, two of them removed fast travel and the "compass radar".

People hate this kind of stuff, and I'm one of them, and we have very good reasons for hating it. If Bethesda are blind or deaf and haven't even thought of including an option to "fix" this, then mods will fix it for sure.
I know I'll still buy Skyrim, but I wouldn't ever play it unless I have an option (either by default or by mod) to get rid of those friggen hand-held things that acts like if I'm a 10-year old mindless robot that can't think for him/herself.

Thats why the first thing that I always do in those games is to completely disregard the main quest in the beginning as soon as you can and just walk around exploring. It really helps.

So you aren't going to buy a game because of a feature you don't even have to use?
This is one of the situations where the Don't like, Don't use argument is valid, you didn't have to use it in Oblivion, or Fallout 3 or Fallout New Vegas, if you want to explore just don't mark an active quest.

I don't really have much trouble "exploring" in Obliv & Fallout 3.... sure, I'll see a grey "point of interest" icon on my compass, and think "Hey, I'll go explore in that direction!" And then, on the way, I'll see something off to the side (raider camp, some shacks, a patch of flowers to pick in OB, etc) and wander over there. Then start heading towards the POI again. And notice something else (more plants, a Nirnroot, an unmarked non-POI sewer drain, etc) and get distracted by it. And then head towards the POI again.... and notice that there's a couple others, and maybe get distracted by one of them (maybe an Ayleid ruin, or a vault, etc, is more interesting than the radio tower or mine I was heading for), get distracted....


...before you know it, you've wandered over a good portion of the map, sort of in the direction that the compass was leading you.


And the quest markers, especially with "distant" quests in Fallout 3, aided in this - I'd start heading towards wherever the far-off place was (Girdershade, Canterbury, Rivit City, whatever), and it would take days of playing to get there, because I'd keep getting pulled aside by the various POI's on the compass. And, being an explorer, I'd have to fully search each and every one of them. Walking from Megaton to Minefield could involve searching half a dozen or more dungeons, and getting dragged into the mess in Big Town. Eventually, that quest might get completed, after a good bit of exploring.

:shrug:


Now, New Vegas... not as much. Since you were stuck doing the linear "Go to next quest hub down highway. Do sidequests. Find out where Benny went. Repeat" until you hit Vegas about halfway through the game. (Since wandering off the road to see what those Points Of Interest were, before you had great weapons/armor/skills? Liable to get you really really dead.)

I think it remains to be seen how well, or poorly, they handle the whole GPS thing in Skyrim.

First, briefly, for the benefit of a few on this thread (and more who are sure to come, and in spite of the fact that all of this has been stated repeatedly, and to little avail) - the problem with Oblivion's map markers wasn't simply that they existed, and therefore the solution is not simply to make them go away (for instance, by setting a quest without markers as active). The problem is that, in all too many cases, the map markers are the ONLY source of information you have. You don't get any sort of directions to your destination - instead, ALL you get is a map marker. So the choice isn't simply between having them on or off, but between having them on so that you know where you're supposed to go or having them off and having absolutely no idea whatsoever where you're supposed to go.

Now - the claim has been made that NPCs in Skyrim will actually give directions to destinations. IF that's indeed the case, then yes - map markers can legitimately be, and had better be, toggleable. In this regard, I want nothing more than to, for instance, get a quest to go to this dungeon, then to ask around town and find out where it is (and actual directions - not just "let me mark it on your map"), then to go out and follow those directions and (hopefully) find that dungeon. If that's the way the game is set up, there's really no reason why map markers would not be toggleable.

The only thing that I fear is that, claims to the contrary notwithstanding, Skyrim will continue the pattern of relying on map markers instead of in-game directions.

The first time that I walked away from Oblivion in disgust was specifically when I realized that that was the case. And that's a thing that I'm particularly wary of now.