We're certainly looking forward to the next MMO from Blizzard

I tried EVE for about 1 hour and couldn't hack it.

There will be restrictions. Our vision of PvP requires player consent.

So it'll be another WoW clone devoid of social/political conflict and with meaningless pvp but full of little achievement maze-grinds to cater to the 12-year olds and addicts.

It's the Fallout world. Anything but FFA loot or similar mechanics is an unforgivable design failure.

What this game should be: Inspired by SWG when it comes to social mechanics (including housing/townmaking), inspired by EVE when it comes to PVP and politics, inspired by WoW when it comes to combat mechanics and polish.

What it will be: An uninspired, toothless WoW clone pushed out by the suits looking for easy profit per investment and produced by people infatuated with WoW.

How do you get so much from so little, with out of context quotes from?

I completely disagree. hardcoe PVP does not make a Fallout game. A Fallout game needs to have style, it needs to be responsive to the player's actions and have consequences for those actions, it needs to have a grey morality, it needs a sense of humor, it needs to have the occasional sick sense of humor, and it needs bad things happening to good people.



We certainly look at SWG and EVE. I don't like EVE, but that doesn't mean I don't appreciate it for what it is. Not every game is going to appeal to every gamer.


Sorry we've giving you that impression. It's certainly not our goal. I think I've said many times that we look at all games, including WOW, and we don't exclude or include a particular mechanic based on popularity. We're trying to craft game features specific to Fallout Online that work best for our game. Like FO1, we're making the game that we want to play. Hopefully, others will like it and come along.

It does sound like we're making a different game than the one you want. You might change you mind when we get something playable out there. I hope you give us a chance, but if you don't, that's very understandable. Again, not every game is going to appeal to every gamer.

Cheers!

Well Chris, it's the few twisted individuals that think it's the Post-Apoc wild west where they think the servers will fill up with people enjoying to get GANKED and looted to what they worked hard for and that's their Post-Apoc "reality". Too bad that they are DEAD wrong.

There's another aspect many forget when the world gets all blown up. Good resilient people try to REBUILD civilization again, I'm one of them.

Only solution here is make a Open FFA PvP dedicated server (One would be more than enough) and watch how tiny the population truely is while the rest of us wheel and deal, and perservere in trying to make a reputation for ourselves as Altruistic heroes or grey Area Opprotunists...

well this was a nice title....

So from 3 quotes you could say this will be a wow clone?

We're certainly looking forward to the next MMO from Blizzard

And what have we heard of the new blizzard mmo? Absolutely nothing, I mean there haven't even been a slightest hint of what it will contain AFAIK. The new mmo might have absolutely nothing to do with wow.

I tried EVE for about 1 hour and couldn't hack it.

Chris doesn't make the game all by himself... = I don't think he can just remove/add content to the game as he likes, and what i mean with that is even if Chris dislikes eve in general, they might still look at it and learn a lot from it.

There will be restrictions. Our vision of PvP requires player consent.

The game can still have a very good pvp side, this only ensures that people wont get killed the moment they step outside a town...

It's the Fallout world. Anything but FFA loot or similar mechanics is an unforgivable design failure.

No, not really. If this is a 3d world with no loadingscreens between areas then having FFA could be a very big flaw, I believe that this would most likely just lead to people camping places and kill anyone close (let people go out, but when they come back into a town they would get ganked).

Eve could handle this because they are in space... and CONCORD would raqe you if you try to do anything withing a secure space (it happens but all the time), and sure there is the 0.0 space and such but the gates are guarded and you can get cloaked ships... I don't know how this could be implemented well into a game like this, without having consensual pvp.

Shortly, you have based all your fact on 3 comments, in which 2 doesn't say anything about the game and the third just states that pvp requires consent but it doesn't anything of how it will be handled. I'm not saying that people can't have their own opinions, just that... you should base your accusations on a bit more fact.

The quotes in the OP are from Fallouts?Chris.





Bad things happening to good people, grey morality, responsiveness to player's actions, player's actions having consequences. These things are best achieved through a hardcoe pvp system. The only way to truly create a world that is responsive to the actions of players is to put the world into the hands of the players - to give them the ability to control the valuables of the game. If you give players instanced dungeons by which they can achieve the valuables in safety, you remove the mmo aspect from the game and make it into the achievement-grind we know from WoW. There will be no real player impact on the world, merely an individual struggle to constantly gain new items, which have no real value since there is no inter-player conflict in which to use them. In order to have players impact the world, there must be a world to impact - i.e. a world of players playing against and with each other, and not a series of 'safe' instances which reduce the world to merely a waiting place where you show off your useless items before going off into a new instance to grind new gear. If you want players to impact the world, make a world where access to valuables are player-controlled. Thus a political game will appear with factions and powerblocks, and the single player will truly be able to impact the world via his fight for a faction, to help reshape the politics of the game.
Do you want a real, living, breathing MMO or do you want a train station between instanced grinding?

Not every game is going to appeal to every gamer.

Exactly why you should have the courage to make a FFA game.

It's certainly not our goal.

I'm enough of a bittervet to know what the suits want, and the power they wield.

I hope you give us a chance, but if you don't, that's very understandable. Again, not every game is going to appeal to every gamer.

Even though it might not appear so, I will give it a chance, otherwise I wouldn't bother posting.

No it's from the general feel I get from reading about the game, with those quotes standing out in particular.

There will be restrictions. Our vision of PvP requires player consent.

The game can still have a very good pvp side, this only ensures that people wont get killed the moment they step outside a town...

No, it also ensures toothlessness to the wasteland as everyone can roam around as they please without fear or excitement. It also reduces the game to a boring grind as the valuables of the game will not be contestable or lossable.

It's the Fallout world. Anything but FFA loot or similar mechanics is an unforgivable design failure.

No, not really. If this is a 3d world with no loadingscreens between areas then having FFA could be a very big flaw, I believe that this would most likely just lead to people camping places and kill anyone close (let people go out, but when they come back into a town they would get ganked).

Eve could handle this because they are in space... and CONCORD would raqe you if you try to do anything withing a secure space (it happens but all the time), and sure there is the 0.0 space and such but the gates are guarded and you can get cloaked ships... I don't know how this could be implemented well into a game like this, without having consensual pvp.

What is hard about having towns secured by guards? Hell, there could even be guarded roads for all I care. I'm not saying that it should be FFA all the time, everywhere, without consequences. I'm just saying if players want valuable stuff they have to risk something to get it. And the resources of the world should be player controlled, at least the most valuable ones.
And yes, there will be certain dangerous chokepoints because of this. As witnessed by the EVE mechanics however, this in no way has to be gamebreaking.



I think you'll find that without bad, good becomes moot. Good luck trying to be a good guy in a world where no one cares about anything social because nothing you do has any kind of impact on the rest of the playerbase.

In fact, the most altruistic player organisation in any MMO I can think of must be the 'EVE University' corp which is dedicated to teaching new players how to survive and thrive in a harsh world. No similar organisation exists in WoW because no one gives a shit about anything besides their shiny armor and dungeon progression.
And if you think that everyone who likes to play FFA MMO's are twisted individuals then you are DEAD wrong.

Well, I did describe my version of Fallout on-line and the way it would suit me best - not like WoW or EVE at all, but I'm not going to repeat myself here.I agree with Julle on most of the issues and I believe we share the similar vision of the dangers of postapocalyptic wasteland and MMO game where players control most of the resources - and that doesn't mean FFA - just a different concept than the one we are used to see today in most of the games.

Anyway, I've signed up for beta - and if there's any luck I'll see how it turns out in the end.

I couldn't hack EVE either. It was a cool new concept, but. I found it somewhat boring.

Lacked story and atmosphere... oh cool it's space.... look more space...aaaand more space.. oh a station...and more space. Another drunk conquistador conquering the governor's ball...

I think the only thing that could svck, would be players - those 10 years old gamers, who don't get the Fallout world. Let's see: I'm hiking through the wasteland and I meet an idiot, who says: "Pay or die". No f****** roleplay. That would certainly svck.

Heh, no atmosphere. Heh, Space game. I put the 'Skill' in 'Kill.'
Wait, what?

(Before I get started, i'm not some nublet who has only been playing since WoW, I played from release until planes of power (And muds before that), went to daoc and got 6 50's there, and have been MMO hopping since. I've played the greats in their prime and I've seen new hopefuls pop up only to be swatted down by poor development, I know what makes and breaks and MMO)

It's called instanced pvp, warzones. Daoc did this better than any game I know of.

FFA PvP makes for a failure of a game, pvp'rs tend to be egotistical and grief -- it only works in eve because eve has such an expansive universe that is carefully counterbalanced by it's factions, you don't attack a member of an alliance in his allainces low-sec, they'll have a fvcking fleet hunting you.

Darkfall tried to take this approach, full loot hardcoe pvp, guess what? It's population is so tiny it's barely staying afloat, people got tired of the griefing and quit (.. this is AFTER they fixed the mechanics, mind)

FFA pvp does not make for a nitty-gritty game, it makes it so that childish high levels can gank and grief all day and shit comes to a full stop.

Solution? Look at daoc. It's leveling areas are off limits to PvP, but it's endgame is still tied around it, you go into the RVR lakes if you want to RVr, you get realm ranks for it, you suffer your griefing there.. not when you are trying to level.

Lack of FFA pvp does not make the game any more 'carebear', doesn't make it any less grey, it just makes it so it's more enjoyable for MOST of the MMO community to play, rather than the very small percentage that enjoys all out gank-fests

Exactly why you should have the courage to make a FFA game.

No, IT's not. Believe it or not they're trying to make a game people would enjoy AND trying to make money *gasp* again, look at darkfall, they took that same stance, made FFA pvp, it flopped.

You can't appease the hardcoe gankfest pvpers and the pve players, but guess what.. pve players make up a much large portion of the MMO community, and marketing-wise, if you have to choose between two target audiences, you pick the larger.

As I said, I suggest open rvr lakes/warzones, Places where people who want to pvp can sit all day and pvp, make rare salvage or something only available there so pve players have incentive to venture there aswell, It's a tried and true method.

I'm enough of a bittervet to know what the suits want, and the power they wield.

Not really, the suits want money. Doesn't mean you can't make something both enjoyable and moneymaking. Lots of people have done it, you don't have to go full on open-pvp shake up the foundations to do it.

Hell, best way to do it is be innovative from the open, and don't make sudden changes you can't pay for.

People want something different from their everyday grind, something different from the old tried-and-true formula, It's why AoC's initial sales were so high, the combat system made people go :WANTTOPLAY:

.. problem with AoC is that that combat system wasn't actually in the original design, they just suddenly decided to do it two months before release, ended up having to push the game back several times develop it,. and ended up with not enough time to actually redevelop content for it; The result was a bland, contentless world with fun combat. PEople ragequit.

So my advice Chris, not that you need it, gamesas hasn't failed with a fallout game yet (.. betheseda did a little, but they're not gamesas >_>) Is don't be afraid to shake up the formula, come up with new systems, but make sure you don't bite off more than you can chew, Deliver a half-finished product, and you'll lose a lot of people (.. many MMOS do this, LOTRO did, DDO did, result? 6 months later when they patched evertything up and the game was in perfect condition, the barely got half the subs they did at release, it left a bad taste in everyones mouth and got a stigmata for it. Wasn't until they went F2P that they got their customer base back)

Even though it might not appear so, I will give it a chance, otherwise I wouldn't bother posting.

[/quote]


Likewise; I have high hopes

well said

No, IT's not. Believe it or not they're trying to make a game people would enjoy AND trying to make money *gasp* again, look at darkfall, they took that same stance, made FFA pvp, it flopped.

Darkfall failed because it's a fvcking terrible game. Don't blame it in the FFA pvp.

Not really, the suits want money.

They want money AND low risk. Low risk equals what they perceive as WoW's 'tried and true' formula.

Your argument consists of a strawman and a false dichotomy. The strawman is that because I want FFA pvp, I want it all the time, without consequence. I of course want a system in which there is risk involved with ganking and pvp, and not just a noob-gank fest. I don't see why some of the things they have in place in EVE cannot be implemented in an FO setting, like for example faction territory with safehouses and defensive measures.

The dichotomy consists of dividing gamers into PVP'ers and PVE'ers. Most players want some of both, and in fact if you look at WoW for example, there are more players that play on PVP servers than on PVE servers.
Not all players can hack a game where being killed means getting your shit stolen. This is a good thing, because as Chris said not every game will appeal to every gamer. The WoW pussified bullshit has been done to death, what the industry lacks is a game that will take true pvp like we see it in EVE, bring it into a more classic MMO setting, and perfect it. Furthermore, this is exactly the style of PVP that will appeal to the Fallout fan base. A rough, vicious world without rules where one has to make ones own way. It is the gaming niche that this game should be made for.
Unfortunately, the suits will think like you. They'll want the 'tried-and-true' model. Plus, in their minds, this model will reach more people, including children. So instead of a game that is more fun, more MMO, more Fallout, we'll get the easy money for profit let's raqe a franchise game.

The man have the point. In my opinion, V13P could be a somewhat hardcoe game, allowing some more harsh interactions. It's FO spirit.

The man have the point. In my opinion, V13P could be a somewhat hardcoe game, allowing some more harsh interactions. It's FO spirit.

It could be, easily, but I think it should be on a separate server type or stuck in certain parts of the world (not necessarily instanced, just zones or areas of a zone with a FFA flag) for the sake of people not interested in it.

There are two glaring errors that immediately stand out to me, reading this gigantic paragraph.

Firstly, you're making the a priori assumption that your definition of value, or quality, is the most relevant. If you think that the lack of player impact on the world is deleterious to its community and atmosphere, then you need to show why. If you think that co-operation driven (as opposed to conflict driven) communities deliver less compelling gaming experiences, then again I'd be interested in hearing why. All I get when I read what you've written is that you dislike X, and that you're convinced that the game is geared 100% toward producing X.

That brings me to the second point. You make a lot of very thinly supported extrapolations and jumps. You seem to be under the assumption that this will be a WoW clone, where players sit in cities, press a button, and get teleported to a 30 minute dungeon where they press some more buttons and get some loot. That's a huge assumption to make based on the information available right now. The problem is that you use these hypothetical (and wildly exaggerated) examples to underpin your points, which simply ends up weakening those points.

I mean, you've taken a quote that one person didn't like EVE (something I completely agree with. Conceptually it's awesome but the gameplay is dead boring. If I wanted to play a spreadsheet I'd just work late more often), and extrapolated that to mean that the PvP and resource system will have nothing in common with EVE. That's just silly. Take a step back, think about how much you actually know, and ask yourself whether you can really be making these sweeping condemnations of the game just yet.

Kyuubil said it much better than I could have -- FFA PvP and value-laden PvP are not the same thing. It is possible to have exciting, interesting, and value-rich PvP without simultaneously turning the entire game world into a gankfest. Coming back to the second point about your complaints -- you have no evidence what-so-ever that PvP won't be a value-laden activity, or that it won't involve factional power balances and player-derived politics. You just know that it won't be non-consensual.

It really just seems like you've got a bone to pick, and that you're reading into these quotes a little too deeply in order to pick it. Maybe you'll sit and sigh, wishing that I were near
Then maybe you'll ask me to come back again
And maybe I'll say "Maybe"

I tried EVE for about 1 hour and couldn't hack it.

There will be restrictions. Our vision of PvP requires player consent.

So it'll be another WoW clone devoid of social/political conflict and with meaningless pvp but full of little achievement maze-grinds to cater to the 12-year olds and addicts.

It's the Fallout world. Anything but FFA loot or similar mechanics is an unforgivable design failure.

What this game should be: Inspired by SWG when it comes to social mechanics (including housing/townmaking), inspired by EVE when it comes to PVP and politics, inspired by WoW when it comes to combat mechanics and polish.

What it will be: An uninspired, toothless WoW clone pushed out by the suits looking for easy profit per investment and produced by people infatuated with WoW.


....Wow....Just wow.... If i was lookin' to get banned/warned i would flame you so bad. But then again. That would be stupid too flame you over internet.

I shall try to take this calmy... Ok. So. You're saying, that this will be nothing but a Wanna-be game? It does not seem like critisism. It seems somewhat of a rant. As the title suggests.

The game ain't out. CHILL please.

I don't like comparong PV13 vith WOW...it's like comparing Mad Max universe with Meet The Spartans...

Or more like comparing the Terminator series to the Carebear series...

Anyway, Julle, I think it's far too early to be expecting this game to svck. It's still in the concept/alpha stage. We'll have a small idea of how it'll be when the beta starts, but that'll be the game-shaping stage where it'll be in constant evolution.

You're entitled to your opinion, but my opinion of your opinion is that you have a incredibly pessimistic attitude. If you're expecting it svck, when the beta starts you'll already think it svcks and nothing will change your disposition because you came into the situation thinking that. Like when people read the retarded critic's review of a movie and think because they think it'll svck than of course it'll svck for them.
The other side of the coin would be to expect the game to be the best thing ever with everything you want in it. Then you get your hopes up. Which isn't good either, because it's an immediate drop in your morale and a higher likelihood to form a pessimistic disposition towards the game without giving it a chance to mature.

For the time being what I think would be best would be to have positive outlook but whilst keeping your mind open to all the possibilities (good and bad) without making any assumptions as to what Fallout Online will actually be until we see it for ourselves. At times like this, rumors are very dangerous.

I'm here to support Chris and the Project V13 development team, as a fan and potential customer and if the game really doesn't turn out the way I'd like, then I'll quietly move on. I most definitely won't try to demonize the game even if I don't like it because I know that there are others who really do like.

This is coming from a guy who didn't hate Fallout: Brotherhood of Steel, by the way! So I'm sure I'll like Fallout Online no matter what. Will it be my favourite Fallout? We'll see.
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