If they come back in fallout 4, they should be treated as a very very small, rare, EXTREMELY difficult force to beat that you may be lucky to encounter once in a blue moon in the commonwealth.

Maybe if you get lucky (or unlucky depending on how equipped and ready you are), you might find an enclave vertibird or a small 2-3 man enclave squad patrolling on the ground and killing everything in sight.

This shouldn't be in the Fallout 4 General Discussion, as there are no Enclave in Fo4....So there is no real connection or reason for it being here.

Oi, who'z ya kallin needless ya grot!

If Bos are space marines of Fallout universe, then Super Mutants are Orks. Simple as that. Considering how much Bethesda rip-offed 40k, I thought this is common sense.

PFFFFFT.

The invalid logic is coming from you.

Proof was provided to show that they are a small small faction.

If you want to even entertain the idea that tey might be some mega faction just waiting to rise up then you'll need to find the canonical proof for it, beyond a reasonable doubt.

Its interesting that in Fallout 4 though

Except that if they were the Orkz they'd never lose, because all they'd have to do in a tough spot is 'clap your hands if you believe' to win. Which would admittedly be hilarious to see in action. I'd say they're more like the Uruk-Hai from Lord of the Rings, albeit with much better weaponry and tougher bodies but without the numerical superiority (overall, not vs. the player specifically).

Hell, the Institute is a paper tiger.

Visit any of the locations outside the main place and it's falling apart.

No actually that is you putting words in my mouth. I have provided an explanation based on in-game content and Bethesda statements. Others have done so as well, unfortunately you continue to deny their assertions in claims that you're correct and they're wrong. Which is rather funny considering you claim that is what I am doing.

Perhaps if you decided to read the content in the thread? Because from what I'm reading you seem to prefer resorting to ad hominem attacks instead of providing evidence to even support your arguments.

I ain't about to repost what I have already said on previous pages of this very thread though.

I am not trying to speak for anyone either. Again you're simply misconstruing my points in an attempt to invalidate them which is an entirely shady form of debate.

Fallout 1 and 2 established the canon and lore regarding FEV, Supermutants and the Enclave. The in-game dialogue, actions and ending slides display the game's lore. When developing Fallout 3 Bethesda not only confirmed said lore in statements, but they also confirmed said lore with their own game. Furthermore, they outsourced New Vegas to Obsidian the people who created Fallout 1, 2 and Tactics who also confirmed the lore and arguments that nearly everyone but you in this thread has used and accepts.

If anyone isn't keeping and open mind, then it's you and I'd prefer you back up your claims and assertions with evidence rather than simply claiming people are wrong or attacking that person him/herself.

Technically, they're the United States as they had the means to make whatever they did to survive legal.....but your wider point that the United States is dead in spirit by that point is also true. The Enclave is the rather sad and pathetic end to the story of a once great Nation, the Founding Fathers would weep in shame to see how their creation ended up.

Autumn probably could have gotten out through the tunnels underneath, like the LW and Dr Li did.....there are branches off that tunnel that were inaccessible to the LW, but the Enclave were using to send in troops to try to cut off their escape. Of course, what you said about his state of mind certainly applies once he gets clear.

As far as the other point, I can't take full credit....I probably would never have come round to that way of thinking but for the posts and PM's I've had with Enclave on the Enclave.

Not sure how much of this is spoilery (since we're not in cheats and spoilers) so just to be safe:

I'm really not. Since I'm speaking for myself here.

You know. As in not everyone. Wherever you and others disagree or not is another matter.

At what point have I claimed that any of my speculations is fact or not? I'm just theorizing as to how it might be possible that the Enclave may still be around or not.

You're saying I'm wrong. That's speaking for me. Wherever I'm actually right or wrong is of course another matter, but there you go. Others say I'm wrong but they provide their own proof and facts and logic with it. You don't seem to be doing anything other then say it with "Others have shown the proof". Nor are you refuting any of my counter logic as they do. If I'm wrong then prove it with your own counter logic and get into a debate about it. Don't just go "I'm right. End of story." I'm certainty doubting some of what others have stated (while at the same time considering what information they presented may be true), and i have questions and have not yet said they're wrong with their facts and logic. At least I have not noticed that I have done so. If I have please correct me.

Ahem. Consider that statement. Can it not be argued that keeping the possibility of the Enclave still being around, despite what has already happened with it, not be considered open minded? Just because you don't currently don't see a way of that being possible (And I'm not necessarily saying I currently see one either) doesn't mean that it is an impossibility. If anything you're attempting to make me be close minded as you're attempting to sway me to your viewpoint and no other. Which you feel is the "superior" viewpoint. I'm not necessarily saying you're wrong, which is why I won't stand for being told I'm wrong. Just because we believe differently doesn't make it any more or less true either way. Not saying you had harmful intent in this area, I'm simply discussing the context of it.

Well where else am I going to put it? And it's the fact that the Enclave are missing FROM Fallout 4 (The very game you say the thread shouldn't be in) that the thread is made. Now if it was "Superman is missing from the game" it would be another matter. But Superman isn't in past fallout games.

All I can say is read your posts in the thread. Hell your first post (aside from OP) is saying someone's logic is invalid

So I dunno at this point if you're intentionally making these posts to ruffle people's jimmies or if you seriously don't understand that, but it's obvious that either way, any attempts at further communication isn't going to go anywhere.

Again nearly every member in this thread has provided support for their arguments and have stated canon and lore from the games. That is a fact. The information that people are providing isn't just some subjective opinion, but objective statements based on stuff from the creators of the Fallout universe (both Black Isle and Bethesda).

You're paths of reasoning seem to be pretty flawed as well considering you're accusing people of things and claiming yourself as innocent (not speaking for others), when in reality... Just re-read your own posts.

If you talk him down you do hear Lyons exclaiming "I can't believe he just let him walk away" during the two week interlude....that kinda implies he did escape. But that's academic, really....he's a broken man, whose dreams have been shattered. He could have gone back..it wouldn't be hard to come up with a story his remaining subordinates would accept...but I doubt his heart would be in it. Unless something comes along that gives him a way forward, he'd either eat a pistol as you say, or crawl into a bottle and die. People respond to having failed in different ways.

Sadly, the Orks' belief system does not make thme immune to death/damage. Only for going fasta and sneaky and well, how most of their technoloy works. The reason I mentioned 40k Orks is because Super Mutants also get stronger and bigger the older they are, which is something Bethesda for sure took from 40k Orks. In their case, it's more like a green/yellow Ogre/Ogryn.

They're also loosely (dis)organised and seem to rely on brute strength/charging instead of battlefield tactics which diminishes the threat level they actually possess.

Let the Enclave rest in pieces. They've suffered so many crushing defeats that bringing them back in force would require a serious ass-pull / retcon.

"Oh no, we just found another top secret Enclave base with thousands of soldiers that was never referenced at all in previous games!"

I'm fine if the only signs left of them are what we see in FO4: scattered power armor suits and eyebots. Maybe a few Enclave remnant characters here and there. But as an organization, the Enclave is done. Time to let some other factions shine.

I want the enclave to return in a DLC of sorts not as a major faction but just a small group trying to get revange on the brotherhood. mainly becuse they are such a comical and cool faction far better than the BOS if I say so myself.

There is also the call you make to the Enclave from the Gecko nuclear power plant. The guy who answers you is shocked its from the mainland when he thinks its another enclave guy prank calling him. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vEDCupW-6dA

If I have done so it wasn't my intent. I'm human like anyone else so I suppose I may have slipped the tongue.

There you go again. Listen sonny, it's not about right and wrong here. It's about you acting like you're in the right. You're basically attempting to slap a bible/book of science in my face here. Others have not acted in such a manner. Wherever you're actually right is a whole other matter. If you keep going "That is a fact" I'm going to be much less inclined to listen to you. Because it's something you just don't do no matter how right you think you are. If you present information and let me reach that conclusion myself I shall be much more inclined to actually listen. Take this approach and it will fall on deaf ears.

Let's put lore and facts on the side for a moment though. Because...

It's all pretty much moot if we just toss logic out the window in the games.

I personally believe that super mutants have outstayed their welcome and would much prefer Enclave be more involved. Others will of course believe differently then I do. But the argument here is "Why is it right for one and not the other, logic be damned?" Did players, at any point go "We prefer Super Mutants to Enclave"? Because I don't remember that happening. The more logical something is the less likely it's going to be in the game I guess. Where's the logic in that?

Maxson said the Enclave is long gone in some dialogue.

Got a quote? I'd like to hear it. Did a playthrough with BoS but I didn't hear him bring them up. But then, I never really felt that inclined to talk to him much.

I wish I had one. I vivdly remember hearing him say it though because I had already read this thread a little, so the idea of the Enclave making a later appearance was an idea that was fresh in my head. Then later, denied by Maxson.

I'm like 90% sure I heard him say it.

https://www.reddit.com/r/Fallout/comments/2zvqao/the_enclave_in_fallout_4_spoilers/

The top few comments pretty much state why I want them back. I never had that option to join them without them going "Die die die either way". I mean, we can join the Institute here. And you're an "outsider" as much to them. Only reason you get to join them is because of Shaun and being a pre-war human yourself of course, but that same logic could as easily have been done with the Enclave. That sums up "closure". Or rather the lack of it.

Now as to wherever they should be back or not? Maybe as a small group hiding away in an area somewhere. Kinda like the Railroad. Still clinging onto the old ways despite their bleak situation or something. NV don't really count because they're not "on active duty" at the time you find them. And they're a little too small and split up. But a group of around 20 in an underground bunker? I can see that working. Mind you, in this game, 20 makes a whole city.

Enclave returning, heck yeah I'm all for it! Bringing them back in a DLC expansion pack is very, very doable.

I mean think about it for a minute, with all those vaults across the country the Enclave could easily have taken over one or several or there could be a secret vault base they could launch from.

Trust me there is still ALOT of unknown in the Fallout universe just in the American continent alone that makes this scenario very much within the realm of possibility.

Honestly it's already falling on deaf ears no matter what or how anyone explains it to you anyways

It is a fact that if you jumped off 100m bridge without a parachute, bungee, etc onto pavement then you'd paint the ground. It's something called the laws of physics. You don't need to experience it and reach the conclusion yourself, at least I hope not.

Just like we know Newton's laws and they have been tested and validated (well sort of they aren't actually accepted in all situations, just in common place things), the lore and canon for those games has been set. No matter how much you believe you can fly into the sunset if you jumped, it is a fact that you merely fall at around 9.8m/s^2.

We have the lore and canon from Black Isle, Bethesda and Obsidian. That lore and canon has been stated in this thread. People are using objective arguments based on this and you just won't hear them I dunno if you just refuse to acknowledge it, or if you believe you know more than the developers (in essence the "gods" of the universe).

In fact, instead of providing any evidence or information to prove my statements wrong, you resorted to ad hominems. If you won't listen to objectivity, then I dunno what to tell ya.

I don't know if it's been said yet because I haven't read the whole thread, but a piece of new info from Fallout 4 confirms that the Enclave were not just a small sect of the government, but apparently the heads of it, including the wartime president, himself. It's talked about in the articles at the Boston newspaper HQ.