Personally I want more Enclave. And before anyone says it the Enclave are quite clearly an organised military organization that can have bases all over the American continent. They're quite clearly very American. And "American" isn't just DC. Raven Rock was one of the found bases (as was the oil rig in 2). Wouldn't surprise me if they have more presidents either. People or AI. At this point they might even have a council if they're still around. A kingdom doesn't fall just because it loses a king. May very well be that each region/large base has its own. Maybe a DLC where there's a continent wide hunt all over America and beyond to ensure they're wiped out once and for all? "Wastelanders: This is the enemy!" Or maybe a choice of doing that and siding with them? I'd actually like to see the Enclave's more grey side. We NEVER saw that faction wide. At least not in terms of "Ok, there's doubt. Let's stew on it for a bit without dying right after" (As we can do with the factions in this game). We see only the dark side so far. Put a little (grey) light on them, give the player the choice to join them or not and wrap it all up with an ending of Enclave making a sacrifice/disbanding somehow or got slaughtered at the end with no base spared because they were hunted down to extinction by the wasteland that had Brotherhood or Institute or other high tech support that has a strong military or advanced detection techniques to show everyone where they hide" and everyone wins. Closure? Check. End of Enclave once and for all for all as a large presence without doubt? Check.

And yes, there's NV with "remnants". But those could be remnants from only their own area/division and they could be cut off from the other divisions within the Enclave faction on a whole. It's a good way to ensure there's less risk of detection. Some real world organizations actually do this. From what I gather of the Enclave they're also loyalists so they would never admit it when unquestioned either without good cause. And at this point we're just left hanging with only assumptions being made one way or the other. Blowing up those two bases doesn't translate to they're done for (Which isn't really confirmed for sure one way or the other in game). And the argument can also be made that they were also "done for" when the oil rig went boom. So if you're going to question my logic, at least use other reasons beyond "because bases went boom". That argument has been repeatedly beaten to death with neither side getting anywhere.

I like the Enclave and would be happy to see more of them. However, I like to avoid lionizing them as they're American Nazis.

They should be pathetic rather than glorious.

At the end of the day, the Enclave is a remnant of everything wrong with Pre-War America. Bigoted, hateful, elitist, and fundamentally incompetent too. They're a collection of people who will look down on Wastelanders and think themselves better because they wave the flag of a dead nation. A nation which they ruined everything good in before they did so.

I'd like any future Enclave to have a contrast with the fact they hold themselves up as the President of the United States but their claim is as ludicrous as their gear.

The Enclave were originally based on the Oil Rig, with a population of around 1,000 according to Dr. Curling. That blew up. Strike number 1

The Enclave shifted operations to the East Coast. Basing themselves out of Raven Rock. Couldn't have had more than a few hundred soldiers at most. That blew up. Strike number 2.

The Enclave moved operations to Adams Air Force Base. That got captured. Strike number 3.

How many more strikes do they get before it becomes cartoony?

At this point, the only known possible location is the Chicago Outposts. But for all we know, its a couple guys huddled around a radio.

Albeit, that was a century ago at the Oil Rig.

It's entirely possible a couple of Enclave soldiers found a Vault and resettled it. Or had a bunch of children themselves.

Or hell, recruited Wastelanders.

Because Nazis are HYPOCRITES.

Part of why it's so damned hard to wipe the idealogy out in RL.

Hell, it'd be funny to find some NCR gangs sporting Enclave colors with shaved heads and flags.

Bethesda can pull whatever the hell they want out of their ass.

Doesn't mean they should.

The Enclave shouldn't come back as a major force. I wouldn't mind seeing a squad of Enclave soldiers and a vertibird going Full Metal Jacket on a bunch of wastelanders as vengeance though.

I don't think they should just repeat the Enclave as it was. We have the Brotherhood of Steel on the East Coast for that now.

However, I think we could do a lot of interesting things with the Enclave.

It just depends what that might be.

Ss I daid before: the Enclave are basically dead. That doesn't mean their ghosts can't haunt the Wasteland, however.

Leave the Enclave alone, leave them at peace I say.


Fallout 2 was in 2241/2, so it was just over forty years ago by Fallout 4.


Enclave dogma is very easy to wipe out, kill all the Enclave. The Enclave's beliefs are not inclusive and they are not an ideologically driven faction in the same way as the Brotherhood for example. They are a country like the NCR which was concerned chiefly with ensuring it's own power, but now it's gone and almost everyone in it is dead.

You can't have some random come along an pick up the Enclave banner, well you could if he was a maniac but it wouldn't be the actual Enclave would-it?


I like the idea of some teenage NCR edge-lords trying to emulate a faction that wanted to literally kill them all - like neo-nazis.

Invalid logic. They're an army, not some small time, thrown together merc gang with just a few bases here and there. How many blows have armies taken in reality and still be able to strike back in reality? There's more then one oil rig in the world. There's more then on Aircraft carrier in the world. Any of them can be turned into a base. And 1000 isn't really that high of a number. The Enclave took some big hits, but an entire army doesn't just disappear just because of that. And look at how many Brootherhood bunkers are around (Which we can wipe out to boot). I highly doubt they'd disappear once we get that big airship and destroy that citadel in DC. It would be a crippling blow to be sure, and it would weaken them, but not wipe out the whole faction. The troops are too spread out all over the continent, not just all staying indoors in a few places. And there is such a thing as "rising from the ashes". It's been done in life. The logic applies here. Because it's not a cartoon. We don't know how many are in the Enclave (It could be 10000, it could be 1000000. We just don't know) and there's just no way of telling how wide spread they are, or if they even only exist in America. Since we haven't even been to other places of the world yet it's unknown as to wherever there's more Enclave out there converting the world into their image of America. Hmm... Other large numbered, high tech factions with similar goals might be a thing. They should have sent high tech Chinese troops to invade us too.

And I could as easily argue the super Mutants feel "cartoony" at this point. They lost their vats and the master. And somehow they're still all over the place.

Told you this argument was beaten to death. The Enclave aren't just a small time gang. They're an army. An army with an idea. And ideas are damn hard to kill. It takes more then nukes and destroying bases. Their only weakness is purity. And we have no way of knowing how many "pure" humans are out there. But there's a hell of a lot of vaults, we do know that much. Some of them might be very large have 100000000 people in cryostasis (Good idea for DLC. Find large vault. Blow it up or taint them with FEV to save them). Not impossible considering how the game starts. Open pods. Convert. Purge any that are impure or doubt. Kinda like Space Marines.

Also, cloning could be a thing. Or even coming across synth schematics left lying around in the wasteland. They'd have the tech to use it. And an Aircraft carrier would be nothing to them. Just convert another ship.

I doubt we can wipe out any faction other then the railroad and minutemen through conventional means. But we CAN kill the idea. It's just damn difficult to do.

Unless... You taint the Enclave. There's a thought. A virus to counter them and ensure they are exposed. With no way to hide from it. Gets the job done AND it's ironic. even a suit can only take so much before radiation gets through. It would have to be a strong dose world wide with no threat of killing. Just remove the deadly parts while leaving in the mutate parts in the DNA sequence or something. There's an Enclave ending I can get down with. They'd have no way to ensure there's any pure humans on a large scale. It's perfect!

Yeah, yeah. I've heard this junk 100 times over. About how the Enclave has bases everywhere, is a huge force with population numbers in the hundreds of thousands yada yada.

But there's no evidence for it. All in-game evidence we have is that the Enclave was only ever a small force. Eden confirms this when he says that he watched as US COG facilities were evacuated and fled to the Oil Rig in the aftermath of the Nuclear War. Which makes perfect sense to rally your forces at a central location and get reorganized. That spot was the Oil Rig. Which in Fallout 2 we learn never had more than around a thousand at most.

The Oil Rig then blew up in Fallout 2. And the Enclave moved east, and the rest is history.

Unless you can provide solid proof that the Enclave is as massive an organization as you claim, with bases all over the world, you're entertaining fantasy at best. Speculation is fun, but we have to look at what in-game evidence tells us. And what we've seen so far indicates the Enclave has been all but wiped out.

And I'd say you'd be absolutely right about that.

Do we really want to turn the Enclave into the super-mutants? Popping up because they "need" to be in the game and coming up with whatever contrived excuse we can find to get them in?

Lets not make the Enclave the team-rocket of the Fallout universe please.

Well, they're an army but they're an Army of Tribals.

Their nation was an Oil Rig which blew up.

Let's remember the Enclave's claim to being the US government is ABSURD. And they're a bunch of cowards who sat in their den when the rest of the world was going to hell. If the Enclave has survived it should be as a Remnant which rebuilt itself some day or an ideology.

There's going to be no Fallout: Tactics Vault-0 where thousands of Enclavers secretly existed.

That would be stupid.

Since nobody else is claiming to be the US Government it's actually not and the Enclave doesn't really care about anyone believing them either since they want to kill everyone.

And they really aren't cowards either, Eden says that it tooks decades for the bunkers to be evacuated for the Oil Rig after the bombs, decades. All those checkpoints you see set-up all over the place, the mention in Fallout 3 of supplies coming to the post-war relief effort all the way from Pittsburgh. Who was coordinating that? The government.

Its not absurd at all, and in fact Fallout 4 basically confirms The Enclave was the result of a US Government COG plan. They are the US Government remnants.

I'm not sure why people expect the US Government to be this heroic do-good force and that they can't be "the bad guys." So automatically The Enclave being "evil" and the Government at the same time is absurd. I can only assume its my countries 'Murica complex seeping in.

I love the fact that the US Government a hostile in Fallout. After so much media which portrays the US Army as always the heros, its frankly refreshing.

I thought the Enclave got the perfect ending to their story in New Vegas. So what if it didn't involve anyone who went east? It's not like the general story behind the Enclave is different from Fallout 2 to Fallout 3... they're the descendants of the American government who fought to commit genocide against the people of the world, and they lost. The Remnants embarking on one final mission for the betterment of the wasteland was a great way to close the book on them, in my opinion.

You're right, and this is something I criticize both Fallout 3 and Fallout 4 for. There was no need for Super Mutants in either game, Bethesda just created contrived and silly explanations for them being in the Capital Wasteland and Commonwealth because apparently, for some strange reason, they believe that Fallout absolutely needs Super Mutants in every single installment.

It's absurd because any government which claims to be the United States government but does not have a democratic election of the people, for the people, and by the people in a century is not it.

The elected officials of the US government died a century ago at the very best and their terms went out long before then.

Hence, they just are claiming titles of their parents.

Because they're fun to shoot.

The Enclave does have democratic elections. President Richardson was elected, and ran for office. And we know the Enclave had a congress.

Wastelanders =/= US Citizens.

Edit: Also the idea at the US Government has to be democratic, is again, that 'Murica complex.

Not to mention they lost to both the NCR and BoS union.

Well they aren't an army, they are a country with a civilian government under an elected President (until Eden came along).

What exactly is their idea? This has been mentioned several times already but it's not a thing. The Enclave's "idea" is that they have the right to live, everything else doesn't and it would be damn peachy if they all died and got out of our way. They're goal is not to "restore prewar America", which is a goal that anyone could support. Like if someone else came along with the exact same goal would they work together? No, of-course not. They don't even consider Vault Dweller's the same as them as they have both killed and performed human trials of toxins on them.

There's no evidence against it either. And until there is I don't see this conversation heading anywhere one way or the other. Now we can either moan about the topic forever more or you can move on to more constructive arguments with proven facts and logic.

Or we can pollute the thread with childish bickering.

Except for this little bit of evidence it seems. I need to clarify myself in regards to my own quote. When I said this I also meant "It may very well be unknown as to what other Enclave units are in operation". That is, leaders give orders. They remain out of touch. Grunts do the work. They interact with each other as little as possible. So even the Enclave may not know how large they are. Best I can compare this too is in Splinter Cell: Chaos Theory. On a smaller scale there, but there's no reason it can't operate on a larger scale either.

Human purity basically. In other words, if you're so much as exposed in the wasteland, you're not in the group.

This is only an opinion. Not a fact. And entirely dependent on personal belief. You believe they're all but wiped out. I believe they've taken a few hard hits and may very well still be in operation. Though perhaps on a smaller scale. But I will not rule out lager scale either. So in a way I somewhat agree with you. BUT, that still doesn't remove them altogether. At the very least one would think we would have found at least a single bunker with some hiding out. Much like that one paladin that's old and has been hiding away for some many years with the brotherhood.

I don't mind that they're not a major playing power anymore, but I DO mind that they're not in the game at all. Now, regardless of reasoning or logic or arguments/counter arguments Fallout fans want them in the game. At least enough to keep them in the game in a minor scale if not a major one. Yes, they weren't in 1. No, that isn't an excuse. Batman didn't always have Joker. And Teenage Mitant Ninja Turtles didn't always have the foot. And all armies, factions, groups and so on shrink and grow. Both over time and quickly, depending on what new situations arise or not.

They don't consider the mainlanders to be US Citizens, in-fact in Fallout 2 they directly refer to you as an Illegal Alien. They elect their own officials amongst themselves which represents their entire citizenry.

Like your forgetting that the Enclave actually has classes and ranks; is the random Enclave grunt "claiming his parents titles".

As mentioned the Enclave only ever numbered around 1000 troops at most. Their main base of operations, the Oil Rig, was blown up and the majority of their forces killed.

Prior to their Oil Rig being destroyed the Enclave had set up a forward operating base at Navarro and had sent troops into Mariposa as well. The Mariposa force was wiped out by Super Mutants (IIRC) and Navarro was cleaned up by the NCR. Anything left at the end up Fallout 2 would only have been at maximum something like 100 troops (if that!).

Now fast forward to Fallout 3 where the Enclave is shoehorned in by Bethesda in larger numbers than should have even been possible. Raven Rock is destroyed and a fair number of Enclave killed. The Enclave then set up outposts and take over Project Purity. The Lone Wanderer with the help of the BoS completely annihilate those outposts and the Enclave forces at the purifier. Enclave should be completely gone at this point.

BUT WAIT! Somehow there are even more Enclave with a crawler platform which is AGAIN wiped out.

The Enclave do NOT recruit people into their forces. They detest "non-pure" humans and species. They could not have feasibly procreated a force in any amount of time we have seen.

The Enclave should have been dead and gone. Fallout 3 shoehorned which, okay fine, but then Broken Steel went too far and they were annihilated again.

The same goes for the damn Supermutants and Ghouls. It's getting ridiculous at this point.

But there is! It has even been mentioned in this very thread!

Well what exactly is the more constructive argument here?

I'd given my evidence for why I think the Enclave is a small force, near extinction. I haven't seen any in-game evidence contradicting that view, nor have you presented any, so I'm not sure where you'd like to go with this.

It's historical. The Roman Empire continued in Byzantine but it wasn't the Roman Empire in people's minds (save the Byzantines) because it wasn't in Rome.

Just as saying the Enclave is the US government because it's descended from the people who ruled it is silly because the US government has no provisios to removing its democratic status in the constitution.

If you add them, you've eliminated the US government and made something new.

It's why the Roman Republic is different.

But we're arguing over minutia. EIther way, I think the Enclave as a serious force was annihilated at Addam's Air Force Base.

The enclave are awesome bad guys..but I feel they're a lil played out now...maybe involve them in a dlc somehow...I'd play regardless lol