So I'm hearing a lot of people saying things like "If you want the game to have realism, then why do you want magic and dragons?" or "this is a fantasy game, things don't have to be realistic." and stuff like that.

We want realism for things that are real in our every-day reality. Such as arrows, swords, horses, item weight, food, etc, etc.. It makes sense to have realism, so that we can relate to the world that we are playing in. It gives it a stronger feeling that it could actually exist somewhere in the universe.

We also enjoy the imaginative side of the game, such as magic, dragons, and lore. This is the main reason why we play these games. It's fun to immerse yourself in a foreign and exciting world where you control the fate of your character and other non-player characters. Does this mean that we want to add realism to magic? How could you? Magic, as portrayed in the game, simply isn't real.

We do, however, want to bring a balance to these things. We don't want magic users to be able to run around casting apocalypse-level spells at whim. And we want it to at least bring some rationality and realism behind these mechanics. For instance, opening locks. If I can open a lock with a metal hook and screwdriver, then there is no reason not to include an open lock spell for magic users. It doesn't break the game, it doesn't make magic unfair, and it certainly doesn't force you to choose the lockpicking skill if you want to open a lock in the game. As if every character is now some kind of trained thief, regardless of how they want to role-play or regular-play (is that a correct term? ).

on a related note, I want lock bashing for the warrior-brute players. It's only fair.

Does anyone agree, disagree, or would like to add anything?

People don't want realism. They want an idealized version of realism that is, in reality, anything but.

From our http://www.gamesas.com/index.php?/topic/1148071-important-forum-information/:


So please don't bump your own topics. Thanks! :wave:

RPG and realism ... yeah ...


i just rather have a good Fantasy world with "authentic feel" to it

and skyrim delivers

A lot of these "realism" complaints are just veiled whines of frustrated players. This guy clearly isn't very good at picking locks.

Personally, I'd like to see a fallout-like "you can't even try to pick this" added in and tied to lockpick skill.

If your non-lockpicking character wants to open locks you can always bring a thief companion with you and ask them to do it.

Bashing locks would be fun, but realize that many of the locks in the game are set into the chest, which means bashing is as likely to close a chest forever as it is to open it.

Open lock spells could be implemented.... but you would also have to deal with magic "seal" spells that put a magic proof lock on things. Overall I like the simple system as it is.

What I want, in particular, is Verisimilitude. Not "realism" per se, but a degree of believability. In 'realism', dragons would be physically impossible. But with Verisimilitude, the impossible things are made to look possible. Like a dragon's wings looking like they might actually be able to let it fly and so on. In fact, there is a problem with this drive for 'realism.' In all honesty, I find JRPG'S in general more visually appealing, it's just that the gameplay and immersion are terrible. And at the end of the day, the gameplay is what really matters in a game.

Realism just doesn't look good in CGI, that's why there was a degree of subtle stylization in the new Deus Ex. Hyperrealistic just doesn't work, especially with current animation technology. It's all part of what's called the 'uncanny valley.' The characters might look realistic enough, but the animation technology just doesn't mesh with it and it looks wrong.

Who is this "we"? The base game should greatly favor gameplay above all else, no matter if it conflicts with your concept of realism or ability to roleplay. I would not care if they added an option to turn features on that made the game more suitable for your needs however imposing rulesets that increase your enjoyment, or at the very least a mod that does so. By default however, your form of enjoyment does not coincide with the collective we (ie majority).

are you The Queen ? because that would be kinda awsome if you played Skyrim...

because afaik she's the only person really allowed to call herself "we"...

you want realism ? my 2hander "barbarian" guys is carrying a massive war hammer, mace or axe made of inordinately strong materials and there is something valuable in a locked wooden chest...

now even i can see how this would end and i didnt even learn Clairvoyance irl...

why can't i have destructible chests ? apart from the fact i couldn't go back and reloot them...

anyway you'll probably get your wish but there's a fine balance between a game that's actually fun and a life simulator that isn't.

I hate it when everyone fights the desire for realism with "Oh, I forgot dragons were real"

Just because dragons are in the game doesn't mean people can survive an arrow shooting into their brain.

What your asking for is not the "realism" but lets have others open lock. When magic was used to open lock all you had to be was a high skilled mage and bam! i could easily be open any lock with no effort other than abit of magic. The charge and break lock method is kinda like waaht fallout 3 did. Though that way always annoyed me and never used it as I could just try find more picks if worse came to worse. The simple just is mages have spells which can make them quite long range, but are quite squishy. Warriors though tough and up for close combat like resistance from magic and range. thiefs are kinda like the half way point in that you wanna try stay far and pick them off or go close and sneakly kill them but also have alot less durable.
What most players want in there realism is simple things such as eating to stay alive and not hungry. Healing over time rather than instance heals when using potions and other things which bring the player more down to earth like a lack of health regen, arrow weight and so on.

You want realism?

Follow these rules:

1 - Eat at least twice a day
2 - Sleep at least 6 hours a day
3 - Go to the bathroom (or bush) regularly
4 - Only carry one set of armor and two wepons at any given time.
5 - Don't carry more than 6 flasks of potions/poisons.
6 - Don't carry more than 1 book at a time
7 - Don't carry more than 5 pounds of misc stuff
8 - When you die, don't reload your game

It doesn't get much more realistic than this.

We don't want realism. Realism is the wrong word. We want things to make sense within the context of the world. We want realistic parameters.

Well when I say we, I really mean I, and what I think some others might think.

Yep. Enough "realism" that the world feels right. But not so much "realism" that alot of the basic day-to-day gameplay becomes tedious and obnoxious.




As an olde-tyme RPG player, I'm perfectly fine with hitpoint-based combat systems - where it's number of hits that takes someone down, not "Oh, you're a great twitch/FPS player, you keep sticking your shots in The Super Vital Spot For Insta Kill.?" That feels like FPS/action game, to me. Not really RPG. But, hey - that's just me.

Thats a pretty good limit to set too. Might try it next playthrough, thanks

Incorrect. In fact, opening locks is TOO easy. You don't even need the perks. with a skill level of 15 in lock picking, you can easily open a master lock with enough patience.




This would help fix the absurdity that we call the lockpicking skill, yes.



And what about the people like me who choose not to use companions, hmm?



What about doors? I can understand where you are coming from with certain metal chests, but there a lot of WOODEN chests that can easily be smashed open with an axe (provided you meet the requirements to do so).



Simple does not always mean better. Complex does not always mean better, too, but as it stands right now, the system of opening locked containers and doors is pathetic. It's too easy, for one, and it doesn't allow you to open them any other way. If I'm a pure mage, I'm going to use magic to solve everything. If I'm an intelligence-challenged orc who thinks brute force is the answer to everything, there should be at least SOME way for me to TRY and solve problems this way. Of course, you have to implement penalties for things like that. Such as, chance to damage or destroy items when you bash open the container, and a chance to alert any nearby NPCs when bashing the lock or casting a spell to open it.

Actually, you're wrong. Realism implies that there is a penalty for breaking these rules, while still allowing you to break the rules if you want to. In our current Vanilla Skyrim of Flawless Bethesda Vomit, there is no penalty for these things. Of course, the last one, about reloading your game, should not be a forced feature. And the bathroom suggestion might be fun, but I don't see the point in adding it in, for balance reasons. Unless of course, pissing your pants makes people like you less. Then I might actually want to see someone mod this in.

There is no penalty for not eating twice a day. In fact, you can go 1000 years without ever eating or drinking a single thing, and your character won't get sick, he won't become weaker, and he certainly won't die.

If I pick up more than one set of armour, the game doesn't penalize me. In fact, I can pick up an ungodly amount of items and store them in my pockets, apparently, and the game doesn't penalize me for doing so, until I reach some strange limit and suddenly I've become a turtle because, you know, carrying around 20 swords is fine, but try to carry a flower on top of that, and we're going to have problems!

Completely unrealistic and breaks the immersion terribly.

This is how I feel, the world has to have enough realism that you immediately identify with it, for me this would be things like the forests and the animals, I'm talking things like wolves and elk.

But there are things in this game that you really have to put a lot of effort into suspension of disbelief, I'm not talking about dragons or wizards, you accept suspension of disbelief for those things, but one of my followers is a wife and mother, despite being away from her home for one game week and then defending the village from a dragon attack, there was absolutely no reaction from mum on seeing her husband and daughter safe, the kind of realism I'd like to have seen there is as simple as "glad you are both ok"; but nothing, nada; kinda spoiled the whole mood of the triumphant moment.

Yes, those who throw the ?You can't possibly have realism in TES? are takng the easy way out of an issue they otherwise can't seem to cope with.
Plausibility is a better word and will force those same people to come up with a better explanation for why they don't want this or that feature implemented in TES.

*BUT*

In the end, and for the most part, it all boils down to personal preference.You either would *like* or wouldn'tTES to feature hardcoe mode, for example.

Lock-bashing would be a nice feature - along with the return of the (unlock) spell. But high level locks wouldn't be bash-able and even higher wouldn't be pick-able. The overall arching principle should be that any task can be completed through any of the major playstyles.

I agree with the magic/realism argument you put forward.

But not with lockpicking, its not like you need to be a thief to be able to lockpick, its not difficult to do and having a spell or a bash lock option is unnecessary IMO. You don't need any other skills to lockpick, the game freezes time for you so you don't need to sneak. The problem with lockpicking is the useless perks.

I wanted my game to be more realistic, so I hooked up my Xbox and LCD TV in my back yard. The heater was just killing my immersion because Skyrim looks so cold.

Good thing it's December, I don't know what I'm going to do this summer...

Open lock for mages is, if you think about it, an unfair alternative to lockpicking.

Here's why:

As a thief, lockpicking represents its own skill, with it's own perks.

As a mage, open lock represents one of many spells in a given magic school.

As a thief, every time I use lockpick, I am contributing towards my level up MORE than if I were a mage casting a low level spell to unlock something.

So if you look into it, it's possible that open lock was removed because it represents a way to get around a non-combat related leveling tree. For example, if I level lockpick, all I get is the ability to unlock things easier. If I spec in alteration, I get the ability to open locks better PLUS the ability to shield myself and use other beneficial spells.

You simply cannot have an entire skill tree devoted to one action, and then allow another skill tree to subvert that with a lower cost.

gameplay>realism

that being said I do think magically opening a lock for mages and bashing a lock for warriors makes a lot of sense and would add to gameplay rather than detract from it
it gives every kind of character the ability to deal with situations in their own way

I don't see anything wrong with lock bashing. Although, you should have a chance to really bust the chest to the point where you might not be able to open it anymore so there would be a risk involved in bashing a lock.

I can see the mechanics work but in the end, this is the point. Realism is important, yes, but the way you implement these things need to make sense within the overall game mechanics. In other words, it's hard to keep adding realism and keep everything balanced.

There will probably be mods to add that though.

It would be cool to be able to unlock things with a bash or with magic, but there should maybe be some consequences for not being delicate and using a lockpick.

Maybe if you bash open a chest, potions, scrolls, books, and other fragile items might be destroyed.

Maybe if you use alteration to unlock a chest, there's a chance an enchanted item might lose it's enchantment or be destroyed or something.