Why would you dual wield daggers? : V - Skyrim

» Thu May 10, 2012 3:43 am

No, they don't. That's precisely the thing. Daggers depend on the sneak skill. Their damage is tied to your sneak level and not to your one-handed level. Also, perks in one-handed explicitely exlcude daggers. Furthermore, it's common sense that if there is a multiplier specifically for daggers then the multiplier for one-handed won't affect them.

They don't have a skill called daggers do they? The description doesn't explicitly exclude daggers like in the other descriptions. But whatever, daggers are lighter and have faster attack speed, and not everyone will put their points into one handed.

Edit: A Full stack of posts! Yeah!!!

» Thu May 10, 2012 2:18 am

I agree with tiny lampe

I don't believe daggers count to the x6 initial perk, I've seen as such on other sites in the past but I can't find them right now.

It makes sense in my mind.

I honestly don't think using two daggers in stealth will be better than one, however when you are seen (or if you are soon), two daggers will be better to fend of the enemies in a blurry of attacks. But, because you are able to pause the game and scroll around for ages thinking what strategy is best right now it doens't really have any tactical difference.

This "...blurry of attacks..." you talk of is not true -- there's no speed increases from dual wielding compared to single wielding, and you cant attack with both weapons simultaneously.

» Thu May 10, 2012 3:05 pm

Interesting anolysis. I guess you have to take into account:

- Dagger speed and dps
- Possibility of multiple sneak attacks because a dagger is silent
- Less fatigue used when swinging
- Less fatigue used running with dagger, more evasive playstyle? (I think I read in a preview that running with a 2h weapon for instance uses up more fatigue)

Some of this is speculative though and I think you could be right.

In a one on one fight you would expect a sword to have an advantage over a dagger. A stab from a sword is more damaging, has more potential for slashes, big reach advantage and the mass adds more power.

In terms of logic dual wielding two daggers should be a lot faster, a longsword in each hand would mess up your balance a fair amount when you swing. The fatigue difference would be big as well, swinging with a dagger in each hand is almost like punching, a longsword has a lot of mass.

» Thu May 10, 2012 6:52 am

Just because it looks cool .

» Thu May 10, 2012 6:12 pm

Their damage is tied to your sneak level and not to your one-handed level.

Has this been confirmed?

» Thu May 10, 2012 11:21 am

Interesting anolysis. I guess you have to take into account:

- Dagger speed and dps
- Possibility of multiple sneak attacks because a dagger is silent
- Less fatigue used when swinging
- Less fatigue used running with dagger, more evasive playstyle? (I think I read in a preview that running with a 2h weapon for instance uses up more fatigue)

Some of this is speculative though and I think you could be right.

In a one on one fight you would expect a sword to have an advantage over a dagger. A stab from a sword is more damaging, has more potential for slashes, big reach advantage and the mass adds more power.

In terms of logic dual wielding two daggers should be a lot faster, a longsword in each hand would mess up your balance a fair amount when you swing. The fatigue difference would be big as well, swinging with a dagger in each hand is almost like punching, a longsword has a lot of mass.

Daggers are faster and use less fatigue, but sneak attacks are all about launching a single deadly blow, aren't they? Or something close to that. Speed and fatigue only really come into use when it comes to open combat, not sneak attacks. Unless you can attack a good amount of times before being noticed, I don't see how it comes into play.

» Thu May 10, 2012 4:29 pm

Given the damage perks for one handed don't apply to daggers you'd never want to use them other than for stealth kills.

Fortune has it that there's perks to allow you to re-stealth if detected, never-mind poison on your weapons so you do damage while you attempt to re-stealth.

» Thu May 10, 2012 6:19 am

I think you're missing stamina into the damage factor.

setting aside the sneak perks which allow more damage done from sneaking, in actual combat, i think you will be able to have more swings with daggers (as they take less stamina than heavier weapons, ie. swords/axes)

in essence, you're doing less damage per strike, yet more strikes with daggers

conversely, you're doing more damage per strike, yet less strikes with swords/axes and heavy weapons

» Thu May 10, 2012 2:53 pm

All the perks that increase the damage back-stab attacks do with; one-handed, daggers or bows, are located in the sneak constellation
http://elderscrolls.wikia.com/wiki/Perks

I personally will definitely attempt to dual wield daggers, If I like that style of play it will likely become my staple, if not then I'll see what other combinations I can come up with, no big.

» Thu May 10, 2012 7:35 am

I think you're missing stamina into the damage factor.

setting aside the sneak perks which allow more damage done from sneaking, in actual combat, i think you will be able to have more swings with daggers (as they take less stamina than heavier weapons, ie. swords/axes)

in essence, you're doing less damage per strike, yet more strikes with daggers

conversely, you're doing more damage per strike, yet less strikes with swords/axes and heavy weapons

Will daggers use less stamina per swing? Yes.

Will daggers have more damage per fatigue point that perk-enabled one handed weapons? No (extremely unlikely).

Swords, maces, and daggers have all sorts of other perks on top e.g. increased critical chance (swords), ignoring armour (maces), and damage over time (axes).

If you see http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:One-handed non dagger one handed weapons get a 40% increased in damage (possibly more there's 5 ranks) which is on top of their already higher base damage.

Also one handed weapons can be poisoned same as daggers.

Having said all that I currently expect to play a dagger using thief class first.

» Thu May 10, 2012 4:00 am

Hmm, I don't know why but dual wielding daggers doesn't seem necessary, it's likelier to use one dagger for a stealth kill than two.
But to reply directly to your post's title I would say, I'm an Altmer mage and I don't use daggers.

» Thu May 10, 2012 3:36 pm

I didn't read the info from the Wiki because I'm avoiding leaks but I have a preferred way of using a dagger. I wouldn't use two because a dagger is a close-in type of weapon. I always use a dagger and shield because the shield will help you get in close so you can reach the enemy with the dagger. I'm sure this wouldn't be for an assassin build but I never play that so it works for me.

:tes:

» Thu May 10, 2012 5:20 am

IMO daggers should be the only melee weapon you get a stealth bonus with

» Thu May 10, 2012 9:42 am

So you can be a dike ass thief

Seriously their is no math needed some people just want to prowl around the forest and stab one in the dike and one in the balls.

» Thu May 10, 2012 8:23 am

Speed and DPS, you can't beat Daggers in that department.

» Thu May 10, 2012 3:14 pm

Alright, lets ignore the fact that i hate what they've done with dual wielding. Despite the fact i'm still going to try it, i think- ... not important right now. Anyway:

Read this first, its straight out of the TESwiki:

Alright, if you didnt catch what i'm trying to point out there, i'm sorry. Moving on...

this being said, you gata specialize to even get the perk to deal sneak attack damage with the dagger (which i find is insane). Other then that, this means they will be ETERNALLY FEEBLE compared to other weapons in game.

I, for one, would think dual wielding daggers would be a very typical and classic choice for rogue characters. But if this basically means your going to be just god aweful in a fight, i cant imagine why you'd do it! Sure, you'd get a beast ol WTF BANG as your opening move, but then if any amount of combat ensued after the fact, you'd be screwed because your weapons would be super feeble late game, compared to if you were just using swords. In fact, i dont even think you'd want to use daggers for stealth!

Heres some math to support my case.

1h weapons deal 6x damage
daggers deal 15x damage (top teir perk btw)
5 ranks of one hand prowess = 2x base weapon damage
that being said, were gana be generous with the numbers.

Longsword (confirmed in a pic) deals 9 damage

9x2=18x6= 108

Since we dont know, lets say a dagger deals more than 6 damage. Sounds reasonable.

6x15= 90 (-18 damage)
7*15=105 (still -3 damage)
8x15 = 120 (finally +12 damage)

In the end, the numbers are STILL negligible. at 1 less damage, its not even a hole strike worth in difference, for still doing a ton less damage in combat!

TL;DR

Since these forums are notorious for not reading, lets just sum it up. Really though it only takes like 3 mins to read...

Daggers dont benefit from damage increasing skills! This will undeniably make them sub standard in combat to dual wield them. Their advantage (stealth damage) can be done equally as well with just 1. Even with that being said, if you max out the damage buff perk, swords can deal almost as much sneak attack damage as a dagger!!!

The end result is that your sneak attacks arnt much, IF AT ALL, better than a sword. On top of that, your combat damage is absolutely pathetic in comparison.

Is there something i'm missing here, or is this pretty much spot on?

You are using data that isn't even for sure yet, and you misinterpreted it anyways.
I'm out.

» Thu May 10, 2012 4:55 pm

There's no point, other than role-playing.

And TES is role-playing, right?

True, very true. But as any RPG, its a Game, that you also Role Play in. Otherwise it would just be an RP, yes?

That being said, theres always the people who will focus more on the RP side of things, and others (like myself) who focus on the G side of things. I personally will go out of my way to play with the numbers. I, personally, dont horde over them, cool factor plays in alot for me. But sometimes its just more cool to whip some ass, then to look cool while flailing around futilely. Othertimes, even if its not as effective, it's effective enough where it doesnt matter.

That, was more the point of this discussion.

Also, unless some one can source where its been said that you can do a dual weapon sneak attack, i'm not gana bank on that. Its an incredible amount of damage. Also, wouldnt you be able to do the same with swords, but still not get screwed in open combat?

Also, one must consider that all of the enchantments and poisons are exactly the same. The weapons would have to be a fair deal faster for the surplus DPS to stack up.

Also, consider your longetivity in combat. How long do you think those weapons will hold their enchantments before needing a refill? I remember in oblivion, if you didnt have a HORDE of soul stones, and some way to refill your enchants, you'd be [censored] out of luck in no time flat.

Also, is it CONFIRMED (i know its rumored to be such) that poisons will last more then 1 swing? If they dont... That will kill the DPS factor of them because you'd have to re apply them. ALSO, dont forget that you'd run out super quickly, unless you spent way too much time hoarding them before hand...

» Thu May 10, 2012 3:24 pm

Try being less cynical next time.

Y'know he reminds me of Shaun from the Assassins Creed series.

» Thu May 10, 2012 3:57 pm

Also, is it CONFIRMED (i know its rumored to be such) that poisons will last more then 1 swing? If they dont... That will kill the DPS factor of them because you'd have to re apply them. ALSO, dont forget that you'd run out super quickly, unless you spent way too much time hoarding them before hand...

How long do you think those weapons will hold their enchantments before needing a refill? I remember in oblivion, if you didnt have a HORDE of soul stones, and some way to refill your enchants, you'd be [censored] out of luck in no time flat.

Yes, it's confirmed. There is a perk under alchemy that states "Poisons last for twice as many hits". It wouldn't be worded that way if poisons only lasted 1 hit without perks right?

As for your other remark, perks again; there is a perk under enchanting that states "Death blows to creatures but not people trap souls for weapon recharge ". Furthermore there is another one that states "Soul gems provide extra magicka for recharging".

» Thu May 10, 2012 6:31 am

Heya all.

Ressurecting this old thread. How is everyone finding daggers now, when the game is out? Personally, I find that/liked 1 MH dagger spell of somekind(illusion) in OH much better than DW. I always screw up with DW equip due to poor equip system and acctually rerolled my lvl 21 thief and went for more spell based stealthy assassin with more heavy on illusion spells.

What do you all think? 1 dagger MH+ OH spell vs DW daggers?

» Thu May 10, 2012 7:30 am

Heya all.

Ressurecting this old thread. How is everyone finding daggers now, when the game is out? Personally, I find that/liked 1 MH dagger spell of somekind(illusion) in OH much better than DW. I always screw up with DW equip due to poor equip system and acctually rerolled my lvl 21 thief and went for more spell based stealthy assassin with more heavy on illusion spells.

What do you all think? 1 dagger MH+ OH spell vs DW daggers?

What,,,does this have to do with this old thread? This thread is done, the game is out, we know about dagger damage. Why didn't you just make a new topic instead of reviving an old useless one? And what's with all the abbreviations?

» Thu May 10, 2012 6:26 am

my sneak char uses bows mainly so havnt paid atention to daggers much.
but two points/questions I like to raise:
1)arnt the end tier sneak assassination perks unique to daggers?
2) in previous TES and I suspect skyrim too, daggers were the fastest swing weapon, making them the best poison/enchant/weapon dps, even more so being dual weild, they are also much lighter than any weapon, reducing your movement speed less than any other weapon aswell as taking the least inventory space.

» Thu May 10, 2012 2:41 pm

What,,,does this have to do with this old thread? This thread is done, the game is out, we know about dagger damage. Why didn't you just make a new topic instead of reviving an old useless one? And what's with all the abbreviations?

Dude, chill...wth man? I jsut asked a couple of questions, no need to get angry about that. I found the topic which was heavily discussed and I assumed that it's better to continue in it instead of making a new one because people using search system like my self. I know that the number are out, but I've also asked some questions regarding the daggers and added my observations as well.

PS: What don't you like about my abbreviations? Are you having a bad morning or something? It's usual to use abbreviations in RPG's and Mmo's.