Alright, lets ignore the fact that i hate what they've done with dual wielding. Despite the fact i'm still going to try it, i think- ... not important right now. Anyway:

Read this first, its straight out of the TESwiki:


Alright, if you didnt catch what i'm trying to point out there, i'm sorry. Moving on...

this being said, you gata specialize to even get the perk to deal sneak attack damage with the dagger (which i find is insane). Other then that, this means they will be ETERNALLY FEEBLE compared to other weapons in game.

I, for one, would think dual wielding daggers would be a very typical and classic choice for rogue characters. But if this basically means your going to be just god aweful in a fight, i cant imagine why you'd do it! Sure, you'd get a beast ol WTF BANG as your opening move, but then if any amount of combat ensued after the fact, you'd be screwed because your weapons would be super feeble late game, compared to if you were just using swords. In fact, i dont even think you'd want to use daggers for stealth!

Heres some math to support my case.

1h weapons deal 6x damage
daggers deal 15x damage (top teir perk btw)
5 ranks of one hand prowess = 2x base weapon damage
that being said, were gana be generous with the numbers.

Longsword (confirmed in a pic) deals 9 damage

9x2=18x6= 108


Since we dont know, lets say a dagger deals more than 6 damage. Sounds reasonable.

6x15= 90 (-18 damage)
7*15=105 (still -3 damage)
8x15 = 120 (finally +12 damage)

In the end, the numbers are STILL negligible. at 1 less damage, its not even a hole strike worth in difference, for still doing a ton less damage in combat!


TL;DR

Since these forums are notorious for not reading, lets just sum it up. Really though it only takes like 3 mins to read...

Daggers dont benefit from damage increasing skills! This will undeniably make them sub standard in combat to dual wield them. Their advantage (stealth damage) can be done equally as well with just 1. Even with that being said, if you max out the damage buff perk, swords can deal almost as much sneak attack damage as a dagger!!!

The end result is that your sneak attacks arnt much, IF AT ALL, better than a sword. On top of that, your combat damage is absolutely pathetic in comparison.

Is there something i'm missing here, or is this pretty much spot on?

Try being less cynical next time.

It is possible that there is another perk for increased damage with daggers. We don't know what all of the perks are yet

Yeah i was wondering about that myself, no need for a dagger if this is correct.

Honestly your going off of the few perks you have there, and coming from the previous games I seriously doubt they would gimp such a typical archetype like a rogue...

But hey, I could be wrong.. Like you, I'll have to wait and see.

There is no point in magic when you can put all your points in Health and beat things to death.

Weight difference? In effect when carrying dual swords you lose more bag space than two daggers, so to make up for that they give swords damage benefits to have it be sensible to carry.

Weapon size is calculated as part of the sneak attempt. Daggers are silent and do not negatively modify stealth checks.

Kind of early to judge this when we don't know the actual damage numbers in dagger vs sword. daggers really shouldn't be on the same level as a sword in a toe-to-toe fight damage wise. Their strength is the incredible speed when swinging a dagger, so in a flat damage comparision they will lack behind but in terms of dps(oh no he didn't), things should pan out. Esp if you had a really sweet damage enhancement on your daggers.

We do know of a stealth perk that increases dagger damage.

it seems clear that daggers will be a stealth weapon this time around. an insanely effective one

Cynicism is truth. So you're asking OP to be less honest.

Why? What?

I did consider that, and as you said theres no solid dagger #'s yet. However, thats why i also did the math all the way up to -1 damage (which, imo, is generous).

Perhaps though, as you say, daggers are faster. But they'd either have to be heavily enchanted/poisoned, or be a great great deal faster. Perhaps that way they could win the DPS race. You must consider however, the fact that swords/clubs have damage enhancing perks (crits, bleeds) that will enhance their DPS as well...

And hey guys, i'm not hatin, and i understand the perk list isnt complete. But we do know a great portion of it and this is what i've surmised based on the information given. I personally hope the +dagger damage is in the stealth tree, like it should be.


Yeah pretty much. I dont (full heartedly) intend to be so, but i felt it appropriate to state it rather bluntly. I dont think i missed any of the known other benefits.

although i do somewhat agree with u, u have missed some factors, daggers swing quicker than swords, combine this with elemental fury and i seriously doubt ur longswords can keep up with that combo

Muy importante: we already know that there is a stealth perk that increases dagger damage. Actually, that may only be for sneak attacks. Carry on then.

Acknowledged, and that is definitely something we will not be able to know until the game is out. I dont think we've seen daggers used in combat yet.


Huh. Well, if thats true then i guess it throws my entire theory right out the window. I didnt notice anything of the sort though. If any one could cite this i'd appreciate it.

I read somewhere that daggers will allow you to stealth kill your targets that is kill you enemy while still remaining undetected. On a side note why would you want to use a dagger (duel wielding or otherwise) in a stand up fight. It would seem to me that even for rogue type characters that would be the time to switch to a big boy sword.

I'll dual wield daggers, (actually my main build is dagger in left, magic in right) because I like daggers, faster, stronger because they are faster, and I can make any weapon strong. My enchanted daggers are as strong as a enchanted deadric Greatsword. Daggers are also a lot more fun to use because of the lower base damage. But damage does not matter to me. Daggers are just better.

Judging by how they deal with them in MW and OB, they are a great deal faster and takes less fatigue to swing them so you stay more efiicient while swinging. Also, more swings could equate to more chances to crit.



Personally i bypass all this by cleaving things in half with the biggest blade i can find

Main reason why is most people like to use daggers all around. In real life people do use daggers, knifes, shortswords, tontos ect. as a main weapon to because they are trained or better with it. They do come out victorious also.

Well, when you think about it would a dagger really be able to go toe to toe with somebody using a sword, I mean maybe if you had a shield but realistically you would need some serious evasion skills to pull it off with dual daggers. Its almost like bringing a knife to a gun fight (or a sword fight in this case). If I can stealth assassinate people with a left hand dagger I might go with sword main hand for scraps and dagger off hand for assassinating.

i really hope you are wrong about daggers being worthless, they are my melee weapon of choice. lets hope bethesda had the forethought to add something that would even out the damage

Because its sixy.

Edit: The OP wasnt saying he thinks theyre worthless or even not ridiculously awesome, just that theyre sub-optimal and perhaps possibly not quite as awesome as swords would be.

You should stop listening to the gremlin who keeps telling you this is all there's going to be in the game. It's completely feasible that a stealth tree affects daggers. Or that there's a dagger tree all by itself.

^Feasible? It's been confirmed since Feb that the dagger perks are in the sneak skill.

It's a real shame Bethesda can't make every possible combination of weapons and fighting style the best in the game. It's not fair to have advantages and disadvantages in an attempt to balance a single player game, everything should be the best. They should just make it so it's dynamic and whatever your wielding is automatically the best in the game.