The only thing which ever bothered me about this game was what it did to the canon, I got into Fallout via Fallout 3 but before it came out I bought Fallout 2 and really got ingrossed in the world through all the articles on the Vault. When I saw that screenshot of the Vertibird landing outside Arlington Library I was quite pleased that the Enclave were coming back (I was 14 and optemistic after Oblivion leave me alone ) I thought it would be like Oblivion with maybe a faction system, which had been present in Fallout 2 after all and maybe we'd get to see more about the Enclave, in 3D no-less. Now being a newbie to the whole thing, the change from Isometric didn't bother me (it was '08 right?) I could go from playing Halo 3 to Theme Hospital, and I'm not an RPG buff with the all stats and such, personally I just like RPing, if I ever found myself becoming too powerful too quickly I self-nerfed and all that stuff in Vault 101 could be forgotten anyway, Capitol Wasteland isn't that big I could make it to where-ever I wanted to start still at level 2 and just lose everything I aquired and bump the difficulty back up, the CW was big and fun, with plenty of exploration and things to do, even if the settlements were a little small and crap.

But what it did to world was just too much for me to consider this a good Fallout game, on it's own merits it's good and fun, as Fallout...

The Vaults were social experiments, there was no reason for the Super Mutants to be there at all, the Vault were about seeing how people reacted to only having 40W lightbulbs and living in a multi-cultural pressure cooker environment, not about continuing FEV research (by a private corporation no less!) and making [censored] clones. Why would FEV be researched there? It was taken from West-Tek (more West-Tek references in DLC please) by the government to be continued for purely military applications in the Mariposa Military Base, what purpose did trying a different strain of virus on people have and if the place was just about making Super Mutants why did it have a GECK in that ridiculous chamber (jokes on you Beth, there's a spot in the corner of your fancy chamber with NO rads), now I do believe that Vault 108 has something somewhere about it's experiment but why the clones? Now, if there were a purely un-opened Vault in a game and you were the first contact with, what would essentially be, a timecapsule of the American people, it would be really complicated with some many emotions and questions which may not be possible in a game, fair enough, but why do all Vaults now have to be horror shows? Even New Vegas is guilty before anyone starts, Vault 22, I know that these "Food-Synthisisers" have been mentioned but so have basic hydroponics, if Vault 22 was all about growing plants what did all the other Vaults do? In short Super Mutants were just shoe-horned in and really dumbed down to just canon-fodder (until Bull [censored] Broken Steel of course).

The Brotherhood? I don't really find it implausable if I'm honest that they are there, the Pentagon, the Whitehouse, so many military secrets are in DC, there could be maps and codes to all sorts of hidden caches across America so I don't really object to their presence. The fact that there white-knights of honour and virtue? Again I don't really see a problem, the little bit where the Paladins talk "knightly like Elder Lyons" is a tad painful but whatever, after seeing the Pitt and after the Scourge, maybe some of the BoS did feel like the elitists (not used in any kind of derogetory sense) that they are. There numbers I find questionable but that holds true of all Fallouts really, weren't they the survivors of the Maripose military garrison? I know they had their families too but just how many could there possibly be? They don't recruit from the outside much so how many are there? I admit that my knowledge of how mant soldiers would typically be stationed at such a place isn't based on anything but I just don't see how they're can be anymore than the pre-2242 Enclave, then again if you cut out F3, Tactics and such I don't have any problems with their numbers. Maybe I'm just biased or less riled up about the BoS because really, my only concern and area of real expertise (if I may say so) on Fallout canon (though I do hold a good general knowledge) is about the Enclave and their pre and post war dealings...

Which of course leads me to the Enclave and how they shouldn't have been there, now I have discussed many times with some of the other Enclave supporters on here such as Lt. Andronicus about how the Enclave chain of command works and how Eden could be President but I'm still skeptical.

Eden's Presidency

As I often mention, one of the non-canon endings for the NCR was that it became a facsist state and that the Enclave survivors were found a new home in their ranks, now whilst that is non-canon the variable is the NCR, not the Enclave. If the NCR had become this state then the Enclave would have collapsed into it, as it didn't the Enclave held together probably out of a need to survive until, in what I'm sure would have been there final ending in a Fallout 3-less world, the NCR attacks Navarro and whatever trace of the Enclave as an organisation is eliminated. Of course, now we are blissfully aware that a ZAX Super Computer became self-aware and became a member of the US Cabinet so after the destruction of the Oil Rig it is assumed that Eden was the most senoir surviving link in the chain and became Acting President of the United States (the concept I base my on character in the RPs' on). Now I'm English, I have very little knowledge outside of wikipedia how the US Government works and whilst the Enclave did streamline and remove (maybe just temporarily, we are taking about centuries of history) the US Government to fit their new vastly reduced scale could something like Eden become President? He is niether a citizen or an advlt over the age of 35.

Presentation

The Enclave in Fallout 3 is a purely military organisation, now whilst in Fallout 2 everyone got rudimentary military training they were still civilians. Pale people milling around machines and in recreation rooms clad in numberless jumpsuits (and they were tagged as Enclave Citizen so they aren't just soldiers off duty), some even with ball-gags and blow-up dolls in their inventory, where did they all go? In 30 years there aparently legions of young soldiers to die but where are the civies? Now maybe Raven Rock is too small & crap and it is definately clear that it was bigger than we saw but why? Vault like apartments, families, civilians, children, all must have been in Raven Rock somewhere and it would have done something to elevate Fallout 3's lack-luster, often money based, moral system. I remember somebody saying that it would be boring to see such places, this was a while ago and maybe on NMA but even still, [censored] that guy. The Enclave aren't just a military organisation, they were democratic in Fallout 2 even if laws on the max number of terms in office didn't exist. Eden was President for 30 years, nobody saw him, there were no elections and nobody knew he was a machine? Now I think it was Lt. Andronicus again who said that maybe they had fake elections and such with Eden simply swapping persona, but to this I say:


?Did nobody quetion that there was apparently one person on the opposite coast who became President and ordered them all there? If someone is thinking maybe they just went and Autumn Senior didn't mention Eden, then what was the justification? If he was legitimate then why did they feel the need to lie?

?Why would Autumn go along with a persona swap, as he says "The chain-of-command must be followed", why would Autumn go along with the deception of the Enclave, why would he betray all those people? If Eden did something like this surely it would warrent his dismissal and probabe deletion, Autumn has the code, they could just move.


Tactics

Why did what is often said to be the most advanced faction in terms of technology (except we now have the Blade Runner rip-off) and what is most definately the US Army, consider just flinging troopers at Liberty Prime's feet and sending Vertibirds to hover in front of it's face to be an effective stratergy? The Vertibirds are shown doing missile strikes and carpet bombs and of course, walking prototype robots are known for their structural stability, shoot the back of the [censored] things legs with missiles like when the crane hoisted into the air and over the Pentagon (comically in about 5 seconds flat too). On the topic of "Take it back" the Enclave have artilery shooting at the bridge, why don't they just shoot the Pentagon it's right there next to bridge, shell your opponents base! They obviously took the BoS as a threat by then as they had rolled out all the force-field barriers, cannon-fodder checkpoints and invisible artilery to stop them. The fact that they didn't just use Bradely-Hercules to bomb them back to the stone-age could be explained by them not having it lines up or lost connection so I will let that one off. But the checkpoints why, little barricades of troopers, what where they supposed to be, surely the men their would require supplies and replacing overy day as there are neither beds and food/water at any camp outside of the First Aid Box at Rock Breakers Last Gas, about 5 actual "camps" in actual strategic locations would have been good and made a lot more [censored] sense for one thing.

Numbers

See the non-canon ending again, this means that the Enclave lacked the numbers to survive as an organisation and probably as a civilisation and, hell depending on how puritanical you are about such things, even as a species. Now they all get called to Raven Rock and in 30 years there are actually droves of young, serving age men and women ready to be cannon-fodder for Liberty Prime; there are only two people in the game who are probably in their +50s, Autumn and a scripted Enclave Officer who emerges from that first Vertibird you see when your down in the intake pipe (before hope is crushed). The Enclave can field so much it's ridiculous, where do all the Vertibirds come from, it is never actually specified I don't believe that the ones even in Fallout 2 were of post-war construction and now they have been revieled to be prototypes so what gives. The blueprints were only at Navarro for maintianence purposes on existing birds, yet by Fallout 3 they have so many it's ridiculous (I put there new appearance soley down to artistic change). Broken Steel kicks them when their down again, but what pisses me off more than anything is another one of those non-canon specific, the Enclave are not the vairiable things, Lyons says after returning from AAFB and inquiring further about the Enclave that he "wouldn't be suprised if they returned again" and that the camps could take months to learn of AAFB's destruction. Wtf. Do radio communications not exist like, do the never eating, sleeping troopers in the wastes never question the fact that nobody is telling them what to do, or bringing them ammo and supplies, seriously, months!?! After all that they didn't even have the [censored] courtesy of leaving them alone, they'll return someday, yeah I bet they [censored] will. Not to mention the fact that not only the whole DC bull-[censored] but apparently they also retained a garrison at Navarro (because ED-E was sent their from AAFB, shortly before the deployment of Hellfire Armour so that the scientists there could continue his work), the loss of which I hypothesise was classified for moral much like early power armour, and now they have a Chicago outpost which was mentioned in ED-E's logs...

Hang on, ED-E was built at Adams Airforce Base and sent from there to Navarro, stopping for repairs at Chicago. That means that if Fallout 3 didn't exist then neither would ED-E or hell Eyebots in general which i quite like, which also means that Chicago wouldn't exist and neither would Navarro courtesy of the NCR. Does that mean in some horrific, Obsidian ret-con way that Fallout 3 actually saved the Enclave?

OOC: Sorry if it's a tad long it took somwhere in the region of half-an-hour/fourty minutes to write and I copy and pasted it from a post I made on page 5 meaning I lost a lot of the italics and boldness which broke it up somewhat.

You make some good points, but the only thing I can really argue about is this:



The Enclave were the most advanced faction because they had the best pre-war tech around. In every Fallout game the best armor we could hope to get was either some sort of Enclave armor variation or the T-51b. And if Bethesda had never brought the series east, that might have stayed the same forever. But now that we're in the east, there's a new faction that is actually making new technology, and highly advanced technology at that. Stuff that would put the Enclave's new tech, Hellfire Armor, to shame. I don't honestly see your problem with this. The Commonwealth survived the war and used the time that everyone else in the country spent slowly recovering to advance technology at the speed it should have had the war not happened (that's my most reasonable, though fan made, explanation for their existence). We jumped across the country to the opposite coast, and wound up discovering a faction that did something better than the Enclave. Is that so unreasonable a concept? I'm sure Ronto would kick their asses too if given the change. Everything about the Enclave is stuck in time, and after 200 years, it's no surprise that there are factions emerging that put them to shame in certain areas.

Thank you, it took a long time to write that rant.

I have no problem with the Enclave being bested technology wise (though they do research and develop new technology, ie, the Advanced Power Armour) or even with the Institute itself, but Androids really? ZAX units the size of buildings which only become sentient by accident now these androids are being made, the same size as an advlt, with fake bodily function too to convince them their human? That to me is just taking things too far, really at MIT they can build AI's which think their human in what are passable replicas of human bodies enough to fool everyone? Harkness claims he cut himslef shaving, wtf, does little fake stubble grow or something? I just think it's all a little too much, hibernation chambers fine, fusion sure thing, androids (and those silly Sierra Madre Vending Machines) are just too much for me to believe. Isn't MIT a center of research wouldn't it be a target? Zimmer himself describes the Commonwealth as, "A war-ravaged quagmire of violence and dispair" aside from the sealed environment of the institute. The sheer scale they operate on too, do so many androids escape that they need a whole new department of other androids to track the escaping androids down? You could of course argue that of course they want to capture them all, that to let one escape is a great waste of technology; but also, so many escape that a whole network of people has been set up to make sure the Androids can escape?

Had Oblivion come out before Fallout2, some may well have also said then that it did "just reek of tweaking the Oblivion system" ... if we now say that it does after having Fallout3. Depends on depth of immersion as well I guess, like watching the TV with one eye and doing something else at the same time.

Quote
But the changes back then were more natural evolution, improving things here and there, updating some systems, they didn't touch the core elements. End-quote

A change to NOT be able to loot armour from a body, doesn't seem to fit with what you say, I see that as quite a profound change and kind of illogical, a big effect on the game and you could say core game-play, also I don't really see anything of the basic core elements of Fallout as having been changed in Fallout3, personally.

Well until Bethesda's next Fallout (which I'm hoping is in the Commonwealth) there are a lot of unresolved questions surrounding the Commonwealth, and as I said my explanation for their existence is fan-made. Everything you just asked can't be answered until we learn more about them and (hopefully) Bethesda will come up with reasonable explanations. But personally I believe Zimmer was stretching the truth quite a bit. There may very well be a wasteland near Boston like there is in D.C., but I don't envision the Institute to be the only civilized place around. If the Commonwealth has a police force, and divisions of that police force such as the Synth Retention Bureau, then they must have a government, and they must have a place to operate out of. Boston is likely a functioning pre-war city like Pittsburgh became, and the Institute must be working for them, because the Institute must be getting all the money for these androids from somewhere. But there's just a lot of stuff we don't know right now. But I do doubt that the entire civilization will forever appear like a blade-runner ripoff. Just because one quest was doesn't mean everything Commonwealth related is.

Surviving being shot in the head is just part of accepting that it is just a game, but mostly it's for the sake of game-play, making a game of it. It's totally illogical I know, surviving head shots, but having played an on-line game with reality one-shot kills .. the game is just no fun....

Games need to have, to a certain extent, the acceptance and overlooking of things that you might say "Hang on, would it really be like that". Often though, plausible explanations can be thought out as to why it could be so, if one really feels the need to.

And that seems to be mostly what complaints are about by those harping on about them, the non acceptance of how the game is, whereas most will just take the game and enjoy it, with it's scenario, it's aims, it's plot, it's rules of play, and it's possibly quirks, ... providing it's not too way out and we don't anolyse the bleep out of it then it's ok.

A head shot, well that may be stretching it a bit, smile ... think of it as having a kind of semi force-field around the head ... it's the best I can come up with, or like you say luck.

The attitude of playing the game probably sums up the list of complaints that some make about the game, but there are probably modders out there who will mod to any desire. "But they shouldn't have to" complainers might say ... well not everything spoils everyone's game I guess.

Yes, there was a one little bit in the game where I didn't have the option to do what I wanted to resolve a situation and get a good karma feeling. I felt that I was having my emotion button pressed and it bleeped me off. But it's a great game with so many plusses.

Unbelievable? There's people who have survived being shot in the head and have come out as fine as the Courier in real life. I don't see how it's anymore unbelievable than the scenario presented in Fallout 3 where a sheltered kid manages to take down a trained security force, and goes on to survive more than a day in the Capital Wasteland.

Survive and survive...

*quickly hides my statistics*

:)

Yeah not to many though. Fallout 3's story needed alot of work, I'll admit. But I am just saying FOR ME it is hard to role play a character in NV because of what happened to you. I just found FO3's beginning easier to role play with, where as in NV it is you survive a shot to the head (by a pistol that is extremely powerful once you get it), you are buried alive, BUT some robot manages to be watching you and digs you up, you end up in a run down house where the Doc gives you a pip boy and a vault suit out of the blue... I may not be as accurate as I think I am since I haven't played NV for a month now. I barely broke 60 hours and I took my HD over to my friends house who erased everything, including my 14 Fallout 3 characters and my NV characters... :banghead: That really turned me off NV because the beginning svcks in that game, IMO.

Actually id dont think that Zimmer was stretching anything. I mean, you are in a sealed enviroment, you produce parts(maybe they go out to scavenge), you dont need money. And i think there arent many androids, they are just too valuable to loose other when that i think there might be around 30-45 androids really.

The beginning svcks in Fallout 3. It was long, boring, and some parts were not necessary.

I loved NV's intro, it was very original. There have been plenty of cases where people have survived headshots. Hell, one guy managed with a stroke of luck to shoot his brain tumor, which was the reason why he tried to commit suicide in the first place. It's a stroke of luck, whether or not that's good or bad luck is up to you. Even a hardcoe gun fan like I am can see it happening.

There is actually a "legend"of some sorts about one famous general how he got shot through his head and the bullet exited through his eye. Everyone said that God was keeping him to fight Napoleon.

On-Topic: It still makes little sense that a guy is shot from somewhere one meter away from him, and he survives and he is ready to fight in the next few hours(well more when few but still). I mean 9mm is itself is one of most powerful pistols in game. I killed swarms of enemies and killed pretectrons with few shots and are you serious unque version cant blast through tissue and a skull/ So the start barely make sense. It was ridiculous if you ask me.

Why should Oblivions release date matter here? I don't get your point.

Why does nonlootable armour not fit in (all armors were not lootable in Fallout 1)? It supports the gameplay and its pacing, and is in no way a profound change or part of the core gameplay (I actually hoped Beth would've utilised that in Fallout 3). As I said, fixes and tweaks here and there, but nothing that would change the base feel of the game.

Core elements as in the whole gameplay (combat, RPG mechanics, moving, interacting with things, traveling, the point(s) of emphasis, all of it). The very basics remained - go around, kill things, talk to things, do quests - but that's the common element with every RPG so there's no changing that.




On a sidenote.... Is it just me or is this forum really (and I mean really) laggy right now?

Yeah. I've had a few stalls every once in a while.

Thank god, I thought it was my computer. The strange thing is that most forums I go to are laggy right at the moment, too.

I don't. I actually like Fallout 3 much more than New Vegas. I know.. I know.. blasphemy. Whatever.. It's better and that's my opinion. I really really hope Bethesda will be working on Fallout 4.

It was confrimed long time ago, sadly










bliviongate:


Darn how many times I need to say, I dont hate Bethesda, I just hate Fallout 3, and Oblivion,

Well, things can get only better. Beth surely learned something from NV, because let's face it, the writing, gameplay mechanics and characters were a vast improvement over F3's. That's a pretty indisputable fact right there. :hubbahubba:

Oblivion and Fallout 3's writing did svck...If Obsidian and Bethesda worked together, we might have a game of Cataclysmic Greatness...

Any particular reason why you mentioned you liked Fallout 3 more than New Vegas? Why exactly did you bring up New Vegas? Was it because you've never played Fallout 1 & 2? If so, anything said by you on this matter should rightfully be disregarded.




No, what Obsidian needs is a budget and 0 deadlines. Bethesda should only publish it.

I thought the point was obvious enough, perhaps I didn't say it right.

I said---Quote
Had Oblivion come out before Fallout2, some may well have also said then that it did "just reek of tweaking the Oblivion system" ... if we now say that it does after having Fallout3. End-quote.

At present Fallout3 is said,--- well I'll quote you, "the changes made in FO3 just reek of tweaking the Oblivion system." end-quote. Fallout3 came out after Oblivion, Oblivion came out before Fallout3.

So if that had been the same situation regarding Fallout2 (Oblivion having come out prior to Fallout2), you or others would have likely had been saying the same thing as you say now Quote "the changes made in FO3 (FO2) just reek of tweaking the Oblivion system." end-quote.
......... ......... ......... ......... ......... ......... .........

QUOTE
Why does nonlootable armour not fit in (all armors were not lootable in Fallout 1)?
END-QUOTE

Wel, either my memory (and WIKI's) is wrong or ?

WIKI...

CHANGES FROM FALLOUT ......... (re armour is in bold)
Fallout 2 featured a much wider array of items, weapons and armor than Fallout. Most of the items from Fallout returned, but had alternate and upgraded forms: the minigun, for example, is now joined by the Avenger and Vindicator mini-guns. Laser and plasma weaponry are now complimented with Pulse pistols and rifles which have short range and low ammo capacity, but deal massive electrical damage. Item prices were also increased at stores, making scavenging for items more important. Also it is now impossible to scavenge armor from corpses, making the total scavenging yield per kill lower. In addition to old, upgraded weapons, several new weapons were introduced for all branches of combat, thus making no one combat skill the best, and allowing the player to be powerful with any firearm. The range of enemies was also increased to a wider diversity. The end result is a much more complex combat environment.

Skills start off at a lower rate than the first game, and the various skills are also more important. Previously, skills like Unarmed, Doctor and Traps were used sparingly, but now, all skills are useful to a degree. The maximum level of a Skill was increased from 200 to 300. The Unarmed skill in particular was made much more sophisticated by adding different types of Punches and Kicks depending on the player's Attributes and skill level. Additionally, skills become more expensive to improve at higher levels. Several new Perks were added while most others were retained, allowing a greater degree of customization.

Karma is accompanied by Reputation, and while Karma affects the player on a whole, Reputation affects how the player is received in a single town. While Karma is achieved by doing good things and killing monsters, Reputation grows based on how the player helps the city, usually by completing sub-quests. By nature, Reputation and Karma tend to grow parallel to each other. As in Fallout, good/evil characters react differently to players with different Karma. Also, the player can acquire certain titles (Gigolo, Made Man, Slaver) based on their actions that also affect the game and how others react to them.

Recruitable NPCs were very simplistic in the first game, and the only extent of control the player had over them was controlling what weapons they used and telling them to stay at a certain distance. In Fallout 2, team NPC control is much more sophisticated, with the NPCs being able to level up, equip armor and be issued orders before combat ranging from when to run away to when to heal themselves. The NPCs also possess distinct personalities and characteristics, similar to previous games. The recruiting process is also more complex, with NPCs refusing to join the player if he has negative Karma or before a certain quest has been completed. Finally, there is a limit to the number of NPCs a player can recruit.

In the original Fallout, sub-quests in the towns and cities were usually solved within that city, with only a few sub-quests requiring the player to travel. The cities, fairly isolated except for caravans, were concerned with their own problems. In Fallout 2, however, the cities have a great deal of contact with each other, and with the sole exception of Klamath, actions in one city may affect the state of another, and sub-quests will often require the player to go back and forth from location to location to kill enemies and deliver messages and items. To assist this, the makers of Fallout 2 added a vehicle, The Chrysalis Motors Highwayman which reduces map travel time significantly. It can be upgraded several times in various missions, and it runs on the same nuclear cells as certain weapons in the game.

The game's overall theme matter is more advlt, with drugs and prostitution becoming major elements of the setting and the drug "Jet" as one of the major subplots. Profanities are also encountered more often. During the course of the game, players can join the Mafia, become a porm star, and engage in advltery. Slavery also becomes an important subplot, and players can either side with the Slavers or join their opponents that try to stamp slavery out. NPCs can be bought and sold as slaves during the course of the game.
END WIKI QUOTE


QUOTE (you)
Core elements as in the whole gameplay (combat, RPG mechanics, moving, interacting with things, traveling, the point(s) of emphasis, all of it). The very basics remained - go around, kill things, talk to things, do quests - but that's the common element with every RPG so there's no changing that.
End -quote.

Yes .... the very things core to most RPGs that some now use to claim similarity of Fallout3 with Oblivion.

One similarity that I actually was hoping for was the use in Fallou3 of the perfect facial photo-realistic realism that Oblivion had perfected, it would have been fantastic. But Bethesda probably held back ... in case some started claiming that Fallout3 was like Oblivion. Well Bethesda, you might just as well have gone ahead and done it ... you get accused by some anyway, .... mostly disgruntled players that miss the board game combat of the early Fallouts.

Bethesda, say to yourselves when doing Fallout4 "stuff them, they (the few) will accuse us anyway of copying Oblivion" and use it.

Why? What relevance has that here?
I can make a similiar "what if" case: "If Beth had never bought the Fallout IP, the comparison to Oblivion would've never been made." Or a more present day friendly case: "If Beth had made Fallout 3 using Fallout 2 as a base (instead of Oblivion), the comparison would've less likely been made." As said, what is the relevance of that here?




There was no need to put that wiki quote there, if anything, it just strengthened my point. I saw a big list of gameplay improvements, none of which touched the base gameplay in a substantial enough manner to turn an apple in to an orange (like Fallout 3 did).

I know the player could loot armors off bodies, but not all NPCs dropped their armors. That is said in the wiki also. Not in your quote, but it is there. And that was what I was referring to. And in "how does nonlootable armor not fit in" was about what I was talking about. How does it not fit in what I was talking about?



I haven't seen anybody, anybody, anywhere, ever complaining about Fallout 3 having quests, talking and killing. Ever. People have been criticizing the quality of implementation, not that they are there in the first place.

Oblivion had photorealistic faces??? Which Fallout 3 did not improve on??? :unsure: What is this I don't even... Ok, I.... I'll just leave it at that.

I think this is as good place as any to stop this. I can't get my point through and the discussion has been stagnant for a while anyway. We'll just have to agree to disagree.

Pointless pissing contest. Taste is subjective.

I think that it would be cool if some of your disision you make are relflected after some time in the viziual aperence of the habitad as a whole .

Thats something that would make it less repentative i think

I don't hate it. I played a little of the old titles and thought they were pretty cool, and like FO3 and NV for what they are.

There is no warrant for bashing. I started with FO3. My opinion is valid. Deal with it.