I rather have a system with small flaws rather than having it entirely gutted. Like I said Skyrim's lack of durability was extraordinarily boring.

Daedric armor should be more powerful than leather armor, no doubt. But repairing daedric armor ought to be more difficult than repairing leather armor. This balances the game more.

Yeah rebuilding. Rebuilding and repairing weapons and armor. And then killing those things with the same weapons you repaired. It thematically makes complete sense. Matter of fact, gutting repair and degradation makes less sense thematically.

It would be nice if the repair system had small flaws, but it doesn't. Its flawed systemically from all angles.

Daedric armor shouldn't even really need to be repaired given the immortality of Daedra. Same with dragon armor. Ebony armor could also qualify, being the literal blood of Lorkhan, an immortal et'ada whose heart is forever.

Don't know what Fallout games you played, but those certainly weren't problems in any game.

Ignoring the basis of my argument entirely. More powerful and rare armor ought to be harder to repair, thus balancing the game more.

I don't understand the dislike toward repair. IMO it adds another layer to gameplay and immersion in the wasteland.

I think there is some potential for the repair feature. Not the way it was in previous two games; that wasn't good at all. But rather turn it into a "maintenance" system where there are few (3 or 4) condition tiers all of which provide certain effect (goind down a tier through an individual amount of uses reducing accuracy, since the guns seem to have have individual accuracy stats, what ever they mean in practice, and causing jams and reloading disorders more frequently) and at the lowest tier, a slight chance of it breaking checked at certain intervals. In effect, you can basically manage with a gun that's about to break, but you know you could do a lot better with a little effort. And once broken, if let go that far, you might as well toss the weapon away as junk or reuse it with what ever sims [censored] there will be. Not really repairing anything, just keeping it in an optimal condition (and obviously not with "duplicates" but with dedicated gear).

Not that they'll do it nor that that's something crucially needed, but since they're going all in on mindless sideline busywork [censored] this time around too, they might as well at the same time try to do something that intends to affect the core gameplay mechanics.

It was already like that in Fo3, NV, and basically every game with a repair system. That has never done anything to fix the problem.

I dislike any system that hasn't worked in the over 20 years game devs have been trying to make it work. I would much prefer devs spend their time trying to make things that can work, instead of having them waste time tinkering away on something that hasn't worked in over 2 decades of different implementations across countless games, just because some people want everything in their game, regardless of how well its actually done.

That sort of thinking is what destroyed most gameplay systems in Morrowind and NV, reducing them to basically a status of non functionality.

Let's pretend repair was going to be in the game indefinitely, but you were given the task of not only designing it but also balancing it within the game's world. What would you do to make repair and upkeep worthwhile?

I would add a button to disable it, so people didn't have to deal with something I know I couldn't balance properly, as I don't have the time or money to take every weapon and armor through every single situation in the base game, not to mention DLC, and factor in things like like damage, accuracy, special effects, how much DR it provides, and how often it gets used in general, and then feed all that into a super computer, and let it compute what the perfect decay rate for every single item is, to allow it to not decay too fast or too slow, and thus prevent it from becoming too OP or too UP.

I think the problem various players are having and why this is being debated is because BGS games are supposed to be (supposedly, according to their marketing and various players' claims) hybrid action-RPGs.

If we take this seriously, this means that it is not up to the devs to attempt to "balance" the game mechanic of degradation around some type of specific play style or viewpoint. In an RPG, you do not simply "teleport to the nearest repair vendor" to fix something, nor do you "switch weapons for fun not because I had to". In an RPG, you play according to your characters behavior rather than gaming the game. This is necessary because it is always possible to game any system, anologous to how it is always possible to break into any "secure" system. In an RPG, players are supposed to understand that they must place their own restrictions on their play for any specific character and base those restrictions on the character's philosophy, behavior, traits, viewpoints, etc.

For example, consider "The Replicated Man" quest in FO3. Players can gain both of the primary rewards by doing a certain action and then doing a second specific action. However, characters who place a high moral standard on NOT performing the second act would never do such a thing even though it is quite easily done in the game itself. Doing the first act and then the second violates roleplaying for such characters, or at least most such characters (i.e., players could play a character that argues for justifying the second act that such characters would not normally do and do not do in other interactions in the game, but this is pretty contrived just to gain both rewards).

Does all of this mean we should have degradation within FO4 as we currently understand its system? Probably not, which is somewhat unfortunate from a roleplaying perspective. However, as with everything else in game design, it's a trade-off with having full customization of housing, weapons, and (hopefully) armor (not power armor as many of us don't care about that and never use it). The full customization includes the ability to create small settlements with trade routes, so (hopefully, again) this element might fix (or help fix) the extremely messed up economics from prior games as well as add more roleplaying of non-violent methods of characters bankrolling themselves for their outings.

In the end, it seems that degradation is out, but the trade-off may be worth it (and if it is out, obviously Todd and his team decided the benefits of customization outweighed the degradation system, including the added roleplaying aspects that customization allows).

An incentive system to upkeep weapons would work better, along with reduced decay for certain items. You don't need to assign an overly complex system like running [censored] through a super-computer just to assign decay values. Assigning weapon and armor categories would be more prudent and efficient. Power armor would decay at a snail's pace versus things like metal combat armor. In Fallout 3, the t-51b power armor was incredibly slow to decay to begin with.

Here's an idea, though:

The system would make it so that armor/weapons have three tiers of quality layered over each other (kinda like how DA:I introduced the concept of armor layering: barrier -> guard -> health).

Damaged / Normal / Clean and Serene

Damaged: The weapon has seen a prolonged amount of use over-time and is need of upkeep. The weapon functions normally, however jamming and overheating will occur at this level and the gun will be rendered inoperable once it hits 0 durability, requiring repair in order to function normally. Armor would provide reduced protection against certain types of weapons. Decays at a moderate pace.

Normal: The weapon/armor functions without issue. Decays at an extremely slow pace at.

Clean and Serene: The gun or armor has damage perks or armor perks on top of it's regular resistances. For example, power armor at this level can shrug off missile weapons more effectively, and armor piercing bullets are less likely to penetrate the armor. Weapons will have damage bonuses like higher penetration value, more damage, etc. Some guns will have perks attached to them at this level of upkeep, like a higher chance to stagger an enemy as if he's getting his [censored] pushed in by hollow points. Decays at a moderate pace.

I always see you on posts like these and you always say that it adds no challenge and that the game is just in general too easy, hardcoe mode or not or blabaty balbaty yak. I bet your one of those guys that bare fist deathclaws to death at level 1 in NV, am I right? And I still maintain that your issue with repair can be applied to every other aspect of the game. Wounded? Fast travel to a medic! Therefore, get rid of health in general, right, kind of like Skyrim did with their auto regen health overtime? It takes no time to get to a medic with fast travel, and it costs even less to heal than to repair! Of course, that's if you don't already have like 20,000 stimpacks in your inventory. You never explained how these things "normally work" in my post when I just applied it to the health and the combat system in general.

But no, in reference to this topic I think they should improve repair now that they have the improved crafting system. Maybe decrease the rate at which it goes down, but have it so that certain parts needs specific things to repair. Your scope required glass to make, right? How about it can start to break separately to the gun, just like the barrel and stock or anything else, and you will need glass and other similar materials you used to make it, to fix it? I will admit while did like repair it was a little strange you ALWAYS needed an EXACT copy of the gun in your inventory. Why not just lug some barrels around instead of the exact gun?

Weapons? Apparently not.

Power armor? Apparently yes.

Let's keep this [censored] civil.

No....I'm not that good at NV. That's like Dark Souls level good, and I am terrible at those kinds of games.

That just sounds even more tediously time consuming then the system we have now. "your gun is broke? spend the next 10-15 minutes looking for the one item you need to fix this part! ohh yeah.... its behind some enemy NPCs like everything else is! But you have no working gun to kill them with, have fun!"

My response, which is actually someone else's response from another thread.

http://www.gamesas.com/topic/1522852-why-are-people-wanting-to-dumb-this-game-down-so-much/

To extend on armor repairing and if it will be present or not, how about limb damage? I don't see that if they were to keep limb damage in the game, that they would axe armor degradation.

Limb damage is still present, we can even see a crippled icon during the E3 vids.

This, is actually a pretty good idea. Combined with what I said above it could actually be one of the most dynamic armor/weapon repair system found in almost any other game.

agreed. Why remove an important part to what makea armor armor? Without the degradation factor, it becomes a silly single number comparison. It should be, "Oh this armor has great defense! Hmm... but it breaks down much quicker than my other armor with slightly less defense." Adds more thought to choosing armor. Sames goes for weapons.

Weapons not being repairable is good.

Armor needing repair is good. That is something that actually gets worn down from use. Leather gets rips and metal will get dents from bullets bouncing off of it.

"Realism" arguments are mostly useless because they are almost uniformly presented only when it's convenient to be "realistic", but never when it is not.

One, they acted like you could have several different items you can use to make items, why not repair as well? Also, not all enemies are going to be guarding junk like scrap metal and toy trucks, and there will probably be more than enough surplus of supplies to make it not too challenging for people like you. And further, why not extend that to ammo? The thing about Fallout is it's supposed to actually bring you the need to carry multiple weapons for many occasions JUST IN CASE THIS HAPPENS. Carry some stupid melee thing on the side, or a different pistol. Also, if you read my updated post on how you think the repair is too easy when compared to health and other things in the game, can you please read it and tell me how they "normally work."

Id bet i will, being able to mod weapons and Armour, and then not having repairs and maintenance? that would be a massive missed opportunity. plus its kind of a staple for Bethesda now.

The thing with Fallout is it's supposed to make you carry multiple different weapons for different things. If you energy based, carry a laser pistol for stupid raiders and cockaroaches, and a laser rifle for medium grade enemies, and strong guns like plasma for harder enemies, so you won't run durability dry on a single weapon of yours. Also, it always leaves an avenue for ammo as well. You have to think and plan ahead.

All that does is change the system from "spend two minutes going to a merchant to get your stuff repaired" to "spend two minutes going to a merchant to buy stuff to repair your weapon", or "spend two minutes going to an empty building to scav for the item you need", not much of an improvement.

Slowing down the rate of decay doesn't do much to solve the problem either, it just makes certain OP weapons even more OP, since they now decay even slower then they did before, wile certain UP become slightly less UP becuase they decay less. Its still a massive balance problem.

As for your previous post, your Skyrim example is flawed because health only regenerates outside of battle when it doesn't matter, and even then, its fairly slow at it. You still need to maintain your HP during battle with potions or spells.

Yeah, and the fact of the matter is that it is easy for people to remove degradation as a whole in Fallout games, you can see like 7 heavily endorsed mods for it. But in a game like Skyrim, trying to implement repair in a game without it? There's only like one mod for it and the creator says himself "be grateful it works more than half of the time." It's easier to remove than add, so just let them add it for people who want it, and if your a wimp get a mod to remove it.

Are you sure it's only outside of combat? Because I've gone through a cave filled with enemies and subsisted on the auto regen alone, so either it healed REALLY fast outside of the 2 seconds of combat I didn't have or it DID regen in combat. Also, that being said, my SKYRIM example is flawed according to you, but you still have yet to say how my Fallout reason is flawed too, Because fast traveling to a medic to heal is just as quick as going to a merchant to repair your stuff, and costs less, and is found in why more areas. Just as ammo is flawed because I can always go to a merchant to buy more. The gun runners at least sell practically 200 rounds of every ammo type, not to mention the 90 other merchants that sell it as well. The more I think of it, the more I realize repair is actually one of the hardest things to overcome in that game. Yet you continue to say it's too easy and flawed.

Also, the fact that it would spend you 2 minutes to find something to repair your gun on the road is totally different. Unlike merchants you won't know where the hell it is you're looking for, it may range from 10 minutes to 30 seconds, and it may be this or that, a toy truck or a paint gun. It will make you feel more immersed in the world, and make you explore more.

And IMHO, the best balance is the one for blurred lines, in Skyrim what stopped you from hogging daderic armor all day till the end of the game? Oh wait, NOTHING. You always used the best equipment cause their was never a drawback, so explain how that is "balance" but a fair system that makes it so you have another thing to account for in the weapon so it may not be all its chalked up to be not fair?