I http://www.reddit.com/r/Fallout/comments/39yg63/no_durability_in_fo4/ and they're certainly telling the truth. But, the game world's time scale moves at a significantly faster pace than real life. Additionally, reaching end-game typically meant that all sorts of things became easier. The argument that things like weapon repair kits trivialized repair at the end-game, is the equivalent to pointing at Doctor Bags and Stimpacks and saying a health/cripple system is redundant because of how easy it is to come by DB's and stimpacks.

Perks like jury rigging reduced the impact of the repair system so people didn't need to carry [censored] around in their inventory just to repair.

Guns should certainly decay slower than armor, but armor should absolutely decay at a reasonable rate relative to how much damage it's taking. That piece of metal which stopped a bullet from [censored] your [censored] up isn't going to be operating at peak capacity 400 impacts later.

On the contrary, the higher quality weapons and armor should decay slower because they use high quality materials. Naturally, they're more expensive to upkeep.

THIS IS EXACTLY WHAT I AM TRYING TO TELL HIM.

Honestly, it's like he nitpicks points that seem vulnerable to criticisms, and blatantly ignores the infallible points.

As far as I am aware.

The Fallout example was flawed for the same reason your Skyrim one was, you still have to manage HP in combat, and I would say that venders offering that much ammo is a flaw of NV.

Repair is different because it never actually comes up during combat unless you are just REALLY oblivious to whats going on. There was never a point where battles went on for so long that my stuff broke, or decayed to the point of being useless. On the other hand, there are points where I have almost ran out of bullets due to how many enemies I was facing, even if I had stocked up on hundreds of them before hand, and there were points where I lost almost all my HP due to the sheer number of enemies attacking me at once, and thus needed things like stimpacks and more ammo.

The problem with repair is that it doesn't actually DO anything to disadvantage you ever, having limited HP and ammo do.

I meant it as more, a specific armor, like the Tesla armor from NV, had high defense but brokedown quicker, balancing it out, thus making it more balanced.

Repair is most certainly important in combat! Get your gun to around 30% efficiency and have it jam and give like 50% reduced damage and tell me it's NOTHING. The fact that you can repair just as efficiently as you can heal in combat proves that they expected you to do field repairs in battle. And if you say that you never let your weapon drop to even close to 30% condition, don't give me that bull**** that it took you no time at all out of your day to repair. Cause I know that's a blatant lie if I ever saw one, you must have fast traveled every 5 minutes to a repair man to do that.

I meant "in combat" as "it never decays to a breaking point while you are fighting" not "a weapon's condition doesn't matter while fighting"

And no, it didn't take any time out of my day to repair my weapon, because the two weapons I used the most in Fo3, the Xulong assault rifle, and the heavy incinerator, were all easily fixable with common place weapons. Especially the Xulong, because Chinese assault rifles were EVERYWHERE. NV just made it even more trivial with the easily craftable weapon repair kits, and I can see why Bethesda cut them from Fallout 3.

Ohohohoho, well then, it seems like most peoples claim that it decays to fast are a lie, because, they always say that you start to notice it immediently and the damage reducer it gives is to big, so who do I believe, them or you? And most of my battles can take hundreds of rounds, so the fact that all of your battles may be to small to notice is most likely a lie.

AND FINALLY:

THEN WHY COMPLAIN ABOUT IT AT ALL? If it is seriously just that easy, WHY EVEN BOTHER SAYING ANYTHING? It makes it sound like a mechanic present in the game that causes you nothing more than once in a blue moon grief. So, if you know a lot of people view it as a really important aspect of game play, and you view it as nothing at all, WHY COMPLAIN AGAINST THEM? These people actaully care about it! They view it as fundamental! You see it as nothing, nothing at all, yet believe your claim is more valid than theirs?

>anyone who has a different experience is a liar.

Yeah, I can see where this is going. Its only the same route as when people claim that its lying to say there's a bug in a quest because they didn't experience it themselves.

All I can really say, is that I hope weapon and armor degradation and repair remains, as well as enhanced and improved upon. I just really think its an important gameplay mechanic.

Love those posts.

I said MOST LIKELY a lie, not that it's total BS if you say differently. All I meant by that was if you say that your battles were always to small to notice a difference, I would be skeptical about your standpoint at the very least. Not that I never ever would believe you. I am a pretty rational guy.

Now tell me the sky is red, and i'll nail you.

I never said by battles were small, hell the gauntlet through the hospital and motel during the Reilly's Rangers quest isn't small, and it still wasn't noticeable there.

Also, as I see I missed this point before the difference between repair, and ammo/HP, is that they suffer from the exact opposite problem.

-HP generally decays at a reasonable and balanced level. There's basically no way to get one shot, and there's nothing, besides a joke weapon like the Chinese pistol, that can do so little damage to not matter. On top of that, things like mines, grenades, and other such items are generally scaled to reasonable levels above normal ammo, but not so OP that they are a massive problem.

-Ammo is basically the same as HP, guns do a reasonable, and generally balanced, amount of damaged based on rarity and type.

The problem with HP and ammo is that stimpacks and more ammo are too commonplace, which is a problem I think should be fixed. However, a player can choose to ignore this problem simply by choosing not carrying 200+ stimpacks, and 50million+ ammo.

Repair on the other hand has the exact opposite problem. Most items repair rates aren't set to a balanced level, resulting in them decaying too fast or too slow, making them either underpowered or overpowered. Whats more, one cannot simply ignore repair's problems, you can't just chose to not carry an item that needs to be repaired. The player is forced to suffer through a terribly unbalanced system, and is thus forced to constantly either repair their weapons in the field, or go to a merchant. The game devs seemingly realized this however, which is why replacement guns, repair merchants, and weapon repair kits, are so easily obtainable, not to mention the "Jury Rigging" perk, which was nothing more then Obsidian going "we know this system doesn't work, so here is an easy way out", but those don't really solve the problem of "repair is broken", and one cannot simply fix repair by lowering the numbers of things to repair with, as the problem isn't there.

While I do believe that there are too many stims, and too much ammo in the game world, and that they should be reduced by about half, those don't bother me much, because its ultimately the player's choice to make those systems unbalanced or not. Repair is not a player choice, and it is unbalanced, and thus, a different situation entirely.

Really, this just sums it up for me.

Here are some points I think are valuable to point out, I will put them in order of paragraph to make it easy.

1. Well, then a lot of people have some conflicting viewpoints with you.

2. There are several ways to get one shot: fat man, missile launcher, Deathclaw, and even yao guai. Of course mainly only at lower levels, but then when you are at higher level, you are right, this does go away. But then pistols and hunting rifles do pitiful damage. Heck, I'm level 6 or 7 right now on a FO3 unarmed specialty character and I can already tank like 7 raiders hooting me at once. Maybe it's because I have full endurance, but that's the point of character specialization and development, right? And I don't know about you, but I have wasted entire clips into basic/brute super mutants on higher difficulties, legendary mainly, to take them down. You call that balanced? I know it's a tough difficulty level, but jeez, I was still in power armor and had my guns skill maxed out while using a assault rifle, and I nearly died to 2 basic super mutants and a brute, and used at least 200 round of ammo. And no I didn't miss a lot. Also, CHOOSE to not pick up all those stims? There is nothing more I hate in a game than purposefully nerfing yourself to make it more immersive. Because the decision to NOT take those valuable assets in itself is not immersive.

3. Repair, contrary to some people, does not feel like it has it's own mind on how fast or slow it degrades. It has a set formula in the computer for it to make the decision, and if it's too fast, beef up your repair skill. If it's too slow, maybe use your gun more, your luckier than most people in the case that your favorite gun can still work after a little bit. And IDK about you, but I still always have issues with repairs in NV, never once have I had either:

A. Enough money to constantly repair to hundred at mojave outpost or whatever.

B. enough weapon repair kits to always do it myself, I hog those babies up early in the game and still only ever find like 20, and the things required to make it are still fairly hard to find, and the fact that their are so many of the resources required to make a kit, makes it even somewhat.

C. Enough junk for even jury rigging to work at all times, it stills requires some rare stuff to repair combat and power armor.

4. Why should I have to choose. This isn't a morale decision i'm making in the story or something, it's game play elements that they put in the game. If they give me 50 Million stims in the beginning i'm taking them. I'd hate it with a passion, but it'd be stupid to not take them. It's their job to make the world brutal but fair in it's resources. It's their job to BALANCE it.

The jury rigging perk wasn't introduced as a means to say repair doesn't work. Hell, removing a system because it decays too fast or too slow is not a strong argument to get behind. The point of jury rigging (picked up at level 14 with a level 90 repair requirement) was to reward players for investing points into repair and alleviate the strain of finding near-exact copies for repair. Not only that, it saved players time and a lot of caps, which aren't exactly abundant early game (unless you do the good old repair/barter builds or game the [censored] out of caravan).

Fallout 3 really struggled with the concept of repair. FNV really understood the concept of repair. You had alternatives whereas before you had to either find an exact replica or spend a boat load of caps at a repair merchant. This is no different to hard-core mode and the lack of resources like stimpacks/doctor bags and the reliance on collecting fruits from the mojave or going to the good ol' Doc in Goodsprings or Novac.

Can repair be improved? [censored] yeah. Implementing a system similar to what I suggested would create value for maintaining weapons. Reducing the rate at which a weapon decays would also be great. We're looking at a system that allows us to combine basic materials into modifications. This is wonderful and really deep, but why remove repair on the merit that it's unbalanced? Tune that [censored] up. Let's stop putting a foot forward but burying the other foot in the mud.

1. Welcome to every topic everyone starts on the internet.

2. Hunting rifles in Fo3 were fairly strong, even at later game.

2.1. No the point of character development should be to improve, but not become a god, or totally immune to something.

2.2. No, nothing above normal in Bethesda games is balanced because its just artificial difficulty. Something I do think needs to be changed.

3. Raising your repair skill, and using your gun more, does little to change the fact the fundamental computer calculations are broken.

4. Because how you play your game is your decision and your decision only. Its not the devs job to tell you how to play, nor should they need to hold your hand to prevent you from hoarding a million stims if you think its makes the game too easy. Balance means nothing in the single-player game, so long as the loss of balance is set in the player's hands. Balance only matters in multiplayer.

-It was basically was actually

-Skill point requirements mean little when the game throws them at you like candy.

-Caps are plentiful early game unless you choose not to pick up all the stuff around you like you are intended.

-Fallout 3 actually did repair FAr better then NV, because it limited the number of ways you could repair something. Making it actually matter to a greater extent, though still not much at all.

-Reducing decay rate does nothing but make the weapons that already decay too slowly even more broken.

-Because in over 20 years of game design across multiple developers and genres absolutely no one has made a repair system that works. This isn't even just Bethesda's problem, its literal EVERY DEV who has failed at it for DECADES.

There is a point where you just need to realize and accept the fact some things are broken and need to be cut, and that's just fine.

And again, you complain about balance but defend Skyrims way of making it as 1-D as possible and having it so some items are clearly, always better than other, which you can then only improve upon by smithing it to legendary. Please, besides purposefully nerfing yourself, what stopped you from using legendary dadreic armor and weapons at the end game? And then, what could stop you? I could ONE SHOT LEGENDARY DRAGONS WITH MY BOW, if granted, I used my poisons and sneak attacked, but still even if I just went up and said "Hello!" and didn't prepare, I'd still win by a landslide. In Fallout a massive group of deathclaws would take so much ammo, armor/weapon durability, (enough to make Remenants Power Armor lose like 10 DT in a few swipes, provided you weren't dead by then, so yeah enough to make a difference) and lots of stims to take out, only if you got a sneak attack critical strike with an anti material with full guns skill could you even come CLOSE to one shotting it, and charging in no matter how prepared meant certain death,

-That's how its SUPPOSED to work though. Just like power armor is supposed to be better then everything hands down.

-Nothing, but then again, its not the game's job to stop you, only to let you chose to stop.

-Again, nothing, but again its not the game's job to stop you, only to let you chose to stop.

-Not really, I went into dead wind cavern with the elite riot gear and an ARM, and just killed everything with ease.

1.Yeah I know I hate it too.

2.Hell no they weren't, they were REALLY beefed up in NV to be considered average, and they were actually, while in FO3 they were first gun you got. At least it was my first gun ever playing outside the vault. And if it is that powerful they limited it by using DURABILITY. It's ammo was easy to get, but since it was always near broke, I used it sparingly.

2.1 I HAVE BEEN SAYING THIS ABOUT SKYRIM. I know this probably better than anyone else! I said I could tank RAIDERS. Put me up against a deathclaw and I will probably be ONE SHOTTED. But raiders are my appropriate level technically, 7 just seems like a lot you know? And with those HUNTING RIFLES they use, phew. I am lucky to be alive.

2.2 Possibly, you just seem like the kind of guy that just needs to have someone hold you back y'know? To prevent you from just DOMINATING every enemy you come across.

3. You should check out the formulas on the wiki, they are actually quite detailed and seem to be more than fair in terms of the gun's condition loss.

4. It's more IMPORTANT in multiplayer, but what if you were able to use that minigun on the nightkin found in Novac right off the bat? Most people were prevented from using it because of it's DURABILITY, (there's that word again) not it's ammo. It's ammo was actually quite common. So if it was at peak condition, you had a completely OP weapon (even for late game) at a relatively low level. Tell me that's balanced.

5. I'm just going to sum that up: The repair is NOT broken. For someone who looks forward to the future, at all the new stuff they might add, you sure are against anything being done with repair aside from complete removal. No ideas to improve it, make it more detailed, or make it ACTUALLY IMPORTANT as in your case. Only tunnel visioned removal.

Skyrim's way of doing things was WAY more broken than FO's for several reasons I HAVE ALREADY MENTIONED. You never said anything about the fact that in Skyrim you always had a clear winner in terms of weapons and armor, and it was as 1-D as possible. It was like something as basic as Realm of the Mad God, in the fact that once you have something better, why go back? Compared to FO's dynamic way of keeping order, no matter how askew or blurred it was as you may think.

Its not, but as I have said before, no one is forcing you to use it.

Having seen every idea been used in an attempt to fix repair, only to see it crash and burn for all the same reasons, kinda makes that a reasonable way to view that.

Except

A. I did say something about it when I said "its supposed to be that way"

B. it's not broke, because that is how it should be. There should be nothing besides PA better then combat armor, and nothing that matches PA in ANY way whatsoever. Fallout's "dynamic" way of keeping order was illogical and unrealistic, and only served to lessen the importance of PA.

similarly, nothing should match Daedric, Dragon, and Ebony armor in any way whatsoever.

A repair system with alternatives isn't broken. Broken implies something not functioning at all. You can fix something that's broken just like you can improve the balance in something that's unbalanced. You're entitled to have an opinion on the matter, but don't piss down my back and tell me it's a fact and I just need to accept it. I'm not insulting your intelligence by doing that [censored]. I'm laying out my reasons and you're doing the same. Discussion on a given subject isn't to convince one another, after all.

Anyways, something I forgot to mention: the reason for repair existing is to also introduce a money-sink similar to how repairs are handled in MMOs. It's a means to stop players from having an exorbitant amount of caps in the beginning. Additionally, a fully repaired pistol is going to sell for more than broken pistol. It has cross-over into bartering.

- No, it's different. You think Power Armor will let you sneak? It purposefully has something in the game to prevent this. Something unmarked that you can't tell without looking in the console. How about the DEbuffs that the lower tier Power Armors gave you? Like T-45? T-51B Had no drawbacks, but was bested by Enclave Armor which while more powerful, had lower DURABILITY, so much lower that it started to go down faster than anything else in the game from any weapon that exceeded it's DT. And T-45, while giving negative agility gave you MORE strength. That's how they BALANCED it. It's all a web of advantages, disadvantages, and nothing is always clear. That's what makes it FUN. Where as in skyrim, you could sneak as well in Daderic armor as you could in fur armor. They may have said heavy armor was harder to sneak in than light armor, but put any points into sneak and it's just as easy. I think their was actually a perk to make them both similar. And even without sneak skill, there was barely any difference. And on top of that, their was no DEbuff like less agility, or less charisma BECAUSE THEY DID NOT HAVE ATTRIBUTES. Whereas in FO, Power armor would reduced some skills at the cost of it's protection. Not to mention you moved a lot slower, and it weighed a lot.

- WELL THEN WHY GIVE IT TO ME?! You could reach the Armor cap in that game with STEEL if you had enough smithing skill, so why give me all these armors that I don't NEED????? And I have already said that I hate having to purposefully nerf myself. Why give me all these goodies if it's unfair if I use them, and fair to NOT use them?

- Again, I HATE HAVING TO NERF MYSELF. For someone who said to not become invincible, but rather specialize in certain things, you sure are defending to the death a game that made it so you could be a god at EVERYTHING. Their is nothing stopping you in that game from getting to 100 for EVERY skill, unlike Fallout. And why should I stop? Bigger is better. I have a CAPITALIST mindset, not a dirty COMMIE mindset. No wonder the FO universe hated them. If I can get it, WHY STOP. FO gave you a level cap so you couldn't become god of everything. And you know what? That made it really fun! I actually had to SPECIALIZE in what I did!

- Maybe it's because I only play hardcoe legendary, but maybe it's because you play on easy. For me, dying a lot is not fun. But the feeling of success of beating something hard after dying a lot is a lot sweeter than just beating it. I beat Bloodborne and the Dark Souls after all, which you said you were bad at.

-No, broken implies not function correctly. It can still function in some form, its just not functioning in the way it should.

-While good in theory, it has never worked in practice. Also, a weapon improvement system like Skyrim's can be used to achieve the same money sink with less uncontrollable imbalances then repair.

-Implying the aren't going to throw SPECIAL and perk points at you like candy in Fo4....... Have you played Skyrim m8?

-Much like the second point, this is all true in theory, but in practice the economy is always so messed up that getting caps is trivial unless you self nerf, and points spent into barter are easily made up for due to the sheer number you get.

-Because Obsidian has never exactly been keen on good gameplay design. Which is why the DT armor system, armor disguise system, crafting system, and basically everything else was broken beyond belief in NV. No, I said they thought the repair system in general was broken. this is a habit that stretches back to KOTOR2.

-That implies any item decays at a correct rate, it doesn't, due to the devs not doing all the testing/super computer number crunching I mentioned way back.

-And as stated before, money sinks don't work. As for making uber guns of death mess up, one can simply not have any of them in the base game, and instead force the player to craft/improve their basic weapons, and lock the highest tier of improvement behind several perks, or in such a way that requires the player to massively exploit to the game's systems to reach.... like Skyrim's crafting system did.

It achieves the same money sink, as you have to buy/mine a lot of materials needed to reach 100 smithing, requires you to invest a butt load of time into to max out by actually crafting everything, requires you take a number of perks that temporarily limiting your character options in other area, and keeps uber death weapons out of people's hands unless they heavily invest into it...... Which is exactly what Fallout 4 is doing, supplanting the weapon decay system with a weapon crafting system that achieves the same functionality, but with far less balance problems since there's no need to make hundreds upon hundreds of individual weapon/armor decay rates.

-The solution was already provided, some people just don't like it.

I could not disagree more with this point. Of course the game should be balanced? What possible logic is that to say just because it isn't multiplayer, means the game shouln't have to have any sort of balance, parity, or a modicum of proper design?

Because single player games are made for you to have fun, fun being subjective to each person.

If becoming the leader of every faction, having 100 in all skills, obtaining every perk, and breaking the magic system to make the sword of 1000 truths, and the armor of god-like unbreakability, if your definition of fun, and the developers can provide it while also providing players you want more of a challenge what they want..... what logical reason is there not to?