Will Skyrim be better Oblivion? : V - Skyrim

» Tue May 17, 2011 8:55 am

Level-scaling - get your facts... (ellipsis)

With that all said, I am not part of Mainstream but if you think that mainstreaming means dumbing down and making it fit for retards to play then you are narrow-minded. Mainstreaming means just removal of useless stuff and focusing on making other elements better. Lack of atmosphere and bad storyline were a result of laziness, not mainstreaming (even mainsstreamers know how to value atmosphere and story) while Level Scaling was an badly designed feature.
In other words, OB's fault was not that it was mainstreamed (as some elitists love to believe... guess it makes them feel smart) but the fact that development itself went in wrong way (laziness, bad design decisions, biting more then they could chew (aka tried to put too many awesome features and then realized that they can't actually make them all work as intended on time) and some others) as well as experimenting on some new ideas that would improve future games (while sacrificing the current one... part of evolution, just ask Alduin). Blaming everything on mainstreaming is just closing eyes to reality and it accomplishes nothing but irritates the developers who seek to please both parties (RPG developers are rarely part of the mainstream so they wish to to please the other party as well). And yes, if you think about it definitely can make a game that both mainstreamers and hardcoe RPG players would like to play.

As for where do some of us get optimism? Here are mine sources:
1. Fallout 3 - many mistakes from OB were not repeated there which means that they probably won't be repeated in Skyrim either
2. Focus on story and atmosphere - unlike OB which tried to fascinate players with awesome graphics (which ironically it never had in the end... probably because consoles weren't able to handle it) beautiful landscapes and trees, Skyrim tries to do it through atmosphere, story and gameplay. If this doesn't show that design philosophy is completely different from OB's, then nothing does
3. Development in late phases - OB promised a lot, but most of it only in early phases. Why? Because many of those features were cut out (I talked about it above). SK promises the same but since the development is almost finished, those promises seem to be a reality

This.

I've nothing to add, you've already spoken all there is to speak :bowdown:

» Tue May 17, 2011 7:18 am

Level-scaling - get your facts right, please. It was there since Arena. Also, it has been confirmed that SK will not use OB's system but F3's which was light years better
Fast Travel - the only game that (partly) didn't have it was MW. Since there are very few advantages of not having it, it being there is a good choice. Optionally, travel services could be there but removal of Fast Travel is a big no
Same World Size - if you have seen screenshots you would know that unlike OB, the world is not an flat place. MW was smaller but landscape made it seem larger. SK's landscape is even more radical so it will leave huger feeling
Number of skills & Perks - number of skills does not equal complexity and if Perks are mixed well, the new system can be deeper then any of older TES games. And if you tried to not watch so narrow mindlessly, you would see what potential TES skill system merged with perks could have
The abolition of skills - as well as their return (Enchant) and addition of some new ones. Don't talk about skills until you know what skills there will be
Spears - unless you can make spears different then the rest of the weaponry (and it should be different: spears mean different combat style then sword usage (YES, MW svcked in that regard: spears should NEVER be just different type of swords)), don't implement them. Resources can be better used elsewhere and since 7/10 people who want them would never use them but would just like them to be there, the demand is ridiculous and childish

With that all said, I am not part of Mainstream but if you think that mainstreaming means dumbing down and making it fit for retards to play then you are narrow-minded. Mainstreaming means just removal of useless stuff and focusing on making other elements better. Lack of atmosphere and bad storyline were a result of laziness, not mainstreaming (even mainsstreamers know how to value atmosphere and story) while Level Scaling was an badly designed feature.
In other words, OB's fault was not that it was mainstreamed (as some elitists love to believe... guess it makes them feel smart) but the fact that development itself went in wrong way (laziness, bad design decisions, biting more then they could chew (aka tried to put too many awesome features and then realized that they can't actually make them all work as intended on time) and some others) as well as experimenting on some new ideas that would improve future games (while sacrificing the current one... part of evolution, just ask Alduin). Blaming everything on mainstreaming is just closing eyes to reality and it accomplishes nothing but irritates the developers who seek to please both parties (RPG developers are rarely part of the mainstream so they wish to to please the other party as well). And yes, if you think about it definitely can make a game that both mainstreamers and hardcoe RPG players would like to play.

As for where do some of us get optimism? Here are mine sources:
1. Fallout 3 - many mistakes from OB were not repeated there which means that they probably won't be repeated in Skyrim either
2. Focus on story and atmosphere - unlike OB which tried to fascinate players with awesome graphics (which ironically it never had in the end... probably because consoles weren't able to handle it) beautiful landscapes and trees, Skyrim tries to do it through atmosphere, story and gameplay. If this doesn't show that design philosophy is completely different from OB's, then nothing does
3. Development in late phases - OB promised a lot, but most of it only in early phases. Why? Because many of those features were cut out (I talked about it above). SK promises the same but since the development is almost finished, those promises seem to be a reality

/cheers for the savior of my day!

» Tue May 17, 2011 7:37 am

The question should be is it going to be better than morrowind?

» Tue May 17, 2011 3:35 pm

snip

Sorry for not quoting but it won't let me multiquote your big message .

Level-scaling -Better than what? uber fail OB ? Dungeons locking to your level and NPCs giving you quests "according to your level" is by itself enough to stop you for bothering and there is nothing that can save it .

Fast Travel -his isn't about advantages , this is about getting it right and Beth simply don't , instant "magical" teleportation is crap, even a ridiculous stupid game like DA:O got it better.

Same World Size-The map in the video looks nothing like older maps , apart from lore being [censored] mountains still cover like 1/3 of the area so there is nothing "radical" ; also 5 cities and 130 dungeons in 20km2 land is one every few steps so yes this is not small , it is tiny.

The abolition of skills-How do you know what we will see? and yes RPGs are everything about number of skills because skills do equal complexity , replayability & customisation. What the hell are "perks" ? ...not to mention the extra stupid idea of shouts , lol
less skills = lesser ambition , they are going for the cash cutting costs even if they deliver (once more) a dumped down game , it doesn't mater what skills are in and what skills are out , 18 (or 21) are simply not good enough .

Spears - Are you a gamer or Beth's accountant? only they care about use of resources. Did you actually played MW ? spears were ideal for keeping opponents in a distance .

I am not part of Mainstream- Of course you are new gen gamer without any relation to RPGs , nobody said that simplified mainstream games are for retards , problem is that Beth insists that they are making something different from what they are actually making ...oh and yeah so far it looks very bad.
Removing stuff never makes a game better , improving maybe but what did they improve since DF ? everything is getting smaller , more childish and more simplified.
Beth never had writing as a strong point , most if not all of their stories are mediocre at best. Eh if you think that mainstreamers can value anything i suggest that you go in Bioware's forums and read their thread about DRM , my point is that "fans" are always ready to shallow anything for as long as paid exclusive reviews rate it over 80% and there is a lot of crowd cheering in forums / youtube.
Hardocre RPGers will not touch this , trust me , it took me less than an hour before uninstalling Oblivion . If their crew did so many things wrong ( including [censored]loads of lies) why you think they will now make anything right? also where was the experimentation of new ideas ? they picked safe road mislead the public with interviews and exclusives and finally presented an abomination that took quite some time for someone to mod it right (Nehrim) .

optimism? - Fallout 3 is a terrible RPG ...naf said

» Tue May 17, 2011 11:56 am

Yes it is going to be better than Morrowind and Oblivion.

» Tue May 17, 2011 2:23 am

I think it will.

» Tue May 17, 2011 1:00 am

The abolition of skills-How do you know what we will see? and yes RPGs are everything about number of skills because skills do equal complexity , replayability & customisation. What the hell are "perks" ? ...not to mention the extra stupid idea of shouts , lol
less skills = lesser ambition , they are going for the cash cutting costs even if they deliver (once more) a dumped down game , it doesn't mater what skills are in and what skills are out , 18 (or 21) are simply not good enough .

As much as I like Daggerfall and Morrowind (love this game the most, actually) I do think that the number of the skills were superfluous, actually. The numbers of skills available doesn't necessarily equates to the actual depth of customization. It seems to me that this 'perks' is not much different to the 'feats' system you'd find in pen and paper D&D. Thus it looks to me that they were actually added more layer of customizations. Here's hoping that it'll feature something that is much more substantial to character building than stuff like the Fallout's 'Bloddy Mess'.

I'm fine with this. But I do miss some skills like 'climbing', though. For effs sake it's Skyrim, after all! :teehee:

On the Dungeon level-scaling: yes, I'm a bit wary of this.

» Tue May 17, 2011 1:32 pm

Low fantasy vs. high fantasy:

We need more info. Morrowind was an alien world, sure, but the world had a lot of internal logic. The actions of the factions was explained (in more depth than "Hey! We don't actually like necromancers anymore!"), there seemed to be a motivation for the placement and design of towns and cities (Caldera was all about the mining), each small settlement had its own little story to tell. I believed in Vradenfell much more than Oblivion's Cyrodiil. The 'low fantasy' comment could just mean that they are again focusing on things making sense, the world being fleshed-out, unlike certain JRPGs where things just happen for the sake of awesomeness. That would be good. It could ALSO mean that they are going for standard cliche Conan atmosphere with nothing to differentiate it from hundreds of other fantasy worlds. That would svck.

Level scaling:

I'm sure they have learned their lesson, so I doubt that level scaling will actually break the game like in Oblivion. But to be honest, there was still far too much of it in Fallout 3 IMHO. I think that Bethesda like level scaling as a concept, so I never had much hope of it going away completely. I'm not too worried, some nice person will make a mod for it.

Abolition of skills: if they make the remaining skills play more uniquely, I'm not worried.

Spears: would be nice, and it seems like a strange thing not to include, but lack of spears doesn't really bother me. Maybe they are difficult to balance (but Bethesda games are never that balanced anyway, so what's to lose?)

I'm optimistic that vanilla Skyrim will be much better than vanilla Oblivion. I think perks are a great addition, love the description of different weapon effects (bleeding damage from axes, etc), support fully the move towards more brutal combat (instead of slowly wearing down each others' health bars), cautiosly optimistic that the AI will be more than a huge bluff this time.

However, I doubt that they will put anywhere near as much weight on skill checks (and generally differentiating the play style of different character types) as I would want in my 'ideal' RPG. The slight concession to skill checks in dialogue in Fallout 3 felt a bit glued-on, as if they suddenly realized that the old Fallout fans would want them. New Vegas was a lot better in this respect, but unforturnately I think Bethesda are far too focused on making sure that all character types can do everything, which is a real pity.

I'm pretty sure that modded Skyrim will be awesome, though.

» Tue May 17, 2011 4:01 am

o_O

I could think of 100+ of ways to make Oblivion better.

For example it could've been Morrowind with better graphics and combat... :wink:

No thanks.

» Tue May 17, 2011 11:31 am

it probavlly will have better mechanics and stuff , but i think my favorite will still be Oblivion as i loved the Cyrodiil setting and had like 200 dungeons.

» Tue May 17, 2011 12:07 am

I think it's set to be. As much as I disliked the removal of skills from Oblivion compared to Morrowind I've got used to it, and in most senses it seems logical to wittle down the more passive elements. The main things that I've found lacking thus far with TES is combat mechanics (which seem vastly improved now), and with Oblivion specifically, Level Scaling, and lack of politics.

If they've spent a lot of time trying to make the world more believable, and immersive, plus included a sensible scaling system (Morrowinds felt nigh perfect), then I think coupled with all the general upgrades and additions we've seen Skyrim certainly has the potential to be the best Elder Scrolls yet.

» Tue May 17, 2011 8:52 am

My opinion:

There will never be another Morrowind. Skyrim will not rise to that level, I guarantee it. On the other hand, Fallout 3 was an infinitely better game than Oblivion. Shivering Isles was an infinitely better game than vanilla Oblivion. Bethesda is a skilled and experienced development team, it's for that reason that I'm pretty sure Skyrim will be a better game than Oblivion. Oblivion will forever mark a low point for the series, and that will be immediately obvious once Skyrim is released.

When Skyrim is out the discussion won't be "Man, Oblivion is better than Skyrim because..."

The discussion will be "Man...what the hell happened with Oblivion?"

I don't think Skyrim being a better game will be much of a challenge. Just changing the level scaling alone improves it ten-fold.

» Tue May 17, 2011 1:49 am

Better than Oblivion, I have no doubt. Graphically, so far it's pretty neat, and I didn't need the GI info to know they would try to fix problems such as NPC faces and mode-of-dialogue, and generally try to improve on combat.

So far though, we had zero info on guilds and factions, dialogue contents, multiple-paths quest, basis on Lore - the attention given to story and depth of the world.

This is what I am not certain they will necessarily try to improve, and we sorely need some reassurance on that.

So, better than Oblivion, yes. Best ES game ever ? That remains to be seen.

» Tue May 17, 2011 1:23 am

it probavlly will have better mechanics and stuff , but i think my favorite will still be Oblivion as i loved the Cyrodiil setting and had like 200 dungeons.

Even though Oblivion is my favourite of the series, I thought Cyrodiil was too "generic fantasy". I'll be disappointed if Skyrim's environments aren't a bit more memorable. However, from the screenshots, I think Bethesda will deliver.

» Tue May 17, 2011 4:58 am

There will never be another Morrowind. Skyrim will not rise to that level, I guarantee it.

I personally hope that it will rise to a whole 'nother level. Morrowind was fantastic, but glaringly flawed.

» Tue May 17, 2011 1:36 am

I can only hope that they saw all the various, and many, flaws in Oblivion and went back to the drawing board and made an RPG that is more complex along the lines of Morrowind.

As far as optimism? I have very little right now. Until I hear more about the game play I'll continue to be skeptical that we'll anything but another dumbed down RPG for the masses.

» Tue May 17, 2011 5:22 am

Better than Oblivion? Pfft, it's already better than Oblivion. Better than Morrowind or Daggerfall? Hmm.. I doubt it.

» Tue May 17, 2011 5:19 am

As much as I like Daggerfall and Morrowind (love this game the most, actually) I do think that the number of the skills were superfluous, actually. The numbers of skills available doesn't necessarily equates to the actual depth of customization. It seems to me that this 'perks' is not much different to the 'feats' system you'd find in pen and paper D&D. Thus it looks to me that they were actually added more layer of customizations. Here's hoping that it'll feature something that is much more substantial to character building than stuff like the Fallout's 'Bloddy Mess'.

The number of skills does add to depth and customization in a free roam game when levelling mechanics are not forcing you into powergaming . Also they let you create extreme specialists , for example i like playing an assassin : climbing , knifes, throwing , archery , stealth , lockpicking , jumping , sprinting and poison alchemy would be my basic skills with some illusion/alteration magic for flavour . If you remove half the skills my character will have blades + perks , stealth with perks , thieving with perks and alchemy with perks. I have the feeling that this wouldn't be the assassin i want but an all around alchemist / swordfighter / thief and i hate jack of trades characters.
Note that spreading points between several different skills means that you will not max everything and you will have to adapt gaming style is order to survive , having to spread points into a reduced amount of skills means that you will have to go for the maximum amount of perks that again will transform you into a jack of trades.

» Tue May 17, 2011 3:32 pm

:facepalm:

Why does every thread turn into an Oblivion bash fest?

I like Morrowind better than Oblivion too but Oblivion was still an enjoyable game that actually improved things from Morrowind. It's not like Morrowind was a perfect game either. Also, I am sick and tired of people being scared of the use of the term "low fantasy". From the literal definition, Skyrim is already far from being "low fantasy". I think it is going to be low fantasy in that characters won't be larger than life and the world will have real life problems. It probably refers specifically with the new art direction. Remember Todd's talk about JRPGs being really high fantasy? I think Skyrim is low fantasy in this context in that there is nothing to over the top. Also, the example of how low fantasy is applied is instead of some function in the world of Skyrim being explained as "it's magic, lol" to "the ore that ti is created with produces a magical substance that allows this to function". Of course I can be completely wrong about my assumption, but I don't see how the literary definition of low fantasy can be applied to Skyrim in any way where you fight trolls, have two different spells in each hand, and fight dragons.

Anyways, it is technically too early to tell if Skyrim will be better than Oblivion. However, I am impressed about what I have seen so far and I have faith that Bethesda will craft a better game than Oblivion. I like what I am seeing about the improved Radiant AI, the combat, dragon shouts, improved level scaling, and seemingly more interesting lore. I personally can't wait to insert the Skyrim disc into my PC for the first time.

^^^^
THIS

» Tue May 17, 2011 8:24 am

The number of skills does add to depth and customization in a free roam game when levelling mechanics are not forcing you into powergaming . Also they let you create extreme specialists , for example i like playing an assassin : climbing , knifes, throwing , archery , stealth , lockpicking , jumping , sprinting and poison alchemy would be my basic skills with some illusion/alteration magic for flavour . If you remove half the skills my character will have blades + perks , stealth with perks , thieving with perks and alchemy with perks. I have the feeling that this wouldn't be the assassin i want but an all around alchemist / swordfighter / thief and i hate jack of trades characters.
Note that spreading points between several different skills means that you will not max everything and you will have to adapt gaming style is order to survive , having to spread points into a reduced amount of skills means that you will have to go for the maximum amount of perks that again will transform you into a jack of trades.

Ideally, it would translates into something like this instead: Marksmanship+a few perks for thrown weapons+a few perks for archery (i.e different effects/purposes for each categories of perk, not merely how good you are at it, which is about as much the older skill system covers,) One-handed Weapons+perks for knifes and small blades for fast, silent kills which effectiveness goes hand in hand with how much you raise your one-hand skill, Athletics+only necessary perks for climbing, jumping, and sprinting that supports stealth and fast escape, Alchemy+a few poison-related perks, Thieving+a few perks for sneak(pace, agility, breath control, etc.)+perks for security, and finally Alteration or Illusion without perks.

But fair enough, I see your point; even though I cannot say that I fully agree yours.

(btw sorry if I don't get myself clear; non-native speaker here :turned: )

» Tue May 17, 2011 2:38 pm

vessels i am not a native speaker either

News that hit the internet say that you will be able to pick all perks with a single character , so long with the "layers" each and every character will be the same .

» Tue May 17, 2011 6:39 am

News that hit the internet say that you will be able to pick all perks with a single character , so long with the "layers" each and every character will be the same .

Really? I must have missed that for sure. Well that's weird, as I recall that Todd stressed in one of the GI hub interviews that they're working on a new system that ensures that each and every character would be more unique.

» Tue May 17, 2011 3:10 pm

I'm excited, I don't really believe it's going be as good as (yes here it comes...) Morrowind but I do think they have learned a lot from Oblivion and the new fighting system sounds intriguing. I like
the landscape more than Oblivions generic fantasy setting also. My main concern is the level scaling though which I would rather have seen in the style of Fallout New Vegas than Fallout 3. But oh well...

Oh yeah and thank god for a new level system. It has been a drag ever since I played Morrowind for the first time! I can't stop obsessing over getting x5 multipliers before I level.

» Tue May 17, 2011 12:35 pm

It has been a drag ever since I played Morrowind for the first time! I can't stop obsessing over getting x5 multipliers before I level.

That was the worst! Thankfully I was pretty quick to recover

» Tue May 17, 2011 12:58 pm

I dont know all i know is Oblivion was not High fantasy, it was extremely low fantasy and somewhat of a bland game. If skyrim is even lower fantasy im scared.

Oh and

morrowind>oblivion.

Do you consider a game with minotaurs and mages and evil demons that want to destroy the world, settled in a beutiful land with different races Low Fantasy? I think you should look for Low Fantasy on the internet... the Elder Scrolls, for its own spirit, can't be Low Fantasy.