Will Skyrim suffer from Oblivion Syndrome ?, Can it be avvoi : V - Skyrim

» Tue Jul 19, 2011 5:10 pm

PLease read this

as this is more what should have been said. It gave you some freedom as to what you wanted to do, and that was a fairly simple line that WORKS.

So though Jauffre will obviously know the implications of what is at stake, he will wait for you to "hone your skills" while doom looms over the realms? He won't ask you about the implications of the emperor's death? So the emperor SHOULDN'T see the importance of your role(which is the reason you were entrusted with the amulet, and not Baurus.) which is why Jauffre trusts you and why the emperor gives you as much detail as he does on what you must do. This, to me, only serves to lessen the sense of important of the task at hand. In the end, the main quest is going to draw you into it...that's why it's the main quest. Either you have that main quest be unengaging or a light touch until a certain point or you sacrifice your role-playability to explore the world and enjoy an engaging main story which is the bread and butter of any role playing game. I understand it's a sandbox, but that doesn't mean the game should sacrifice engaging story and purpose in order to just become a toolbox for you to have fun with. In the end, it's an RPG first, and a sandbox second....at least in my opinion. Either way, you are going to enjoy yourself. Not sure why we're so vocal about these small "annoyances"

» Tue Jul 19, 2011 7:36 pm

Very well then, sorry for my "uneducated comment". Allow me to present a more "educated" one.

I understand what has been said here. You are expressing your want for a main storyline with a lighter touch in the beginning as opposed to immediately engaging you within it's importance, leaving you without a choice of free roam exploration that doesn't make you immersive role players feel like a [censored]. In the end, though you complete the main quest...the game doesn't end. That big ol' open world is still there! Though many of the quests may seem ridiculous to the hero of all of Cyrodil, that's just how it was since they hadn't thought to make the dialogue for quests or the quests themselves change depending on your fame or already completed activities, i.e. "Well...there is something I want you to do but I fear it's a bit below someone of such greatness" etc. Though I understand the want to explore the big ol' world, I enjoy a Main quest that is actually engaging. You know, it kind of feels like it's a bit more important than all the other ones. Also, a lot of the main quest bits have mechanics that help you see the various towns and mechanics of the games that new comers to the game might not know about.

I don't believe it should be called a "syndrome" just because you don't have the creativity to give your character's reasoning not to follow the main quest ["Man, our emperor was a nutcase! How can some silly amulet have such an importance?" and as you explore you find oblivion gates around, and though your character fought the impending truth, he slowly succumbs to the truth of the oblivion gates across the lands and perhaps a discovery of the fallen kvatch and eventually seeks out jauffrey.] and because you also lack the patience to just finish the MQ, as long as it may be. I'm certain though that since so many have expressed this concern the devs might address it since they do read and care what reviews and fans say about them as far as criticism(which is the one thing that will always help me to keep my faith in them). I do hope that they allow for more exploration throughout the MQ, but in the end, it's all part of the game and I have yet to not enjoy a MQ...so there's no loss if this "oblivion syndrome" you speak of arises.

Just because the actors in the game don't say "Hey! go explore! lolz" (not literally, but some cheesy dialogue mechanic forcefully put there as opposed to engaging realism, thought I know it can be tastefully done) doesn't mean that it isn't still open world. Get over it. (this concludes my uneducated comment)

OMG, if you read the original post, you will have seen that I did not invent the phrase, I SAID " A GAMES REVIEWER YEARS LATER COINED THE PHRASE "

he/she happened to be reviewing Red Dead Redemtion at the time.

» Tue Jul 19, 2011 12:51 pm

Personally, I like these implied queues in the main quest. If a city is burning, that means that if I go now, I may be able to mitigate the damage. If I go later, then more damage may have occurred.

A good RPG should have consequences for waiting too long before you embark on a mission sometimes. (ME2 - Relay)
So pick and choose when you want to do the main quest or when it can wait.

» Tue Jul 19, 2011 8:19 am

OMG, if you read the original post, you will have seen that I did not invent the phrase, I SAID " A GAMES REVIEWER YEARS LATER COINED THE PHRASE "

he/she happened to be reviewing Red Dead Redemtion at the time.

If YOU read MY POST you will see I made no claim to anyone inventing or coining the term, only that I believe it shouldn't be called that and it being called that shouldn't be enforced, since in my opinion it is kind of ridiculous.

» Tue Jul 19, 2011 5:27 pm

Either you have that main quest be unengaging or a light touch until a certain point or you sacrifice your role-playability to explore the world and enjoy an engaging main story which is the bread and butter of any role playing game. I understand it's a sandbox, but that doesn't mean the game should sacrifice engaging story and purpose in order to just become a toolbox for you to have fun with. In the end, it's an RPG first, and a sandbox second....at least in my opinion.

One of the major perspective differences of people who've posted in this thread is the question, "How important is the story in TES?"
For someone like me, the answer is simple: Not at all.
I like games with good stories, but the strengths of Bethesda lie primarily in world-building, depth of lore, and free-form sandbox gameplay -- not in their main quests or storytelling capacity. If the story is the bread-and-butter, than there are loads of companies who make much better games than Bethesda. But there's no one who crafts worlds and allows freedom like Bethesda does, and that's why I've been playing their games religiously for more than half of my life.
When the sandbox elements are threatened, even for the sake of good storytelling, people like me tend to panic and lament the changes a bit, partially because we have no other series to run to for the gameplay we enjoy. TES is all that's really left of the genre and playstyle, and more and more gamers like myself are left to wonder how many of our gameplay options will be sacrificed for the sake of story.
I'd love it if TES got great at telling stories, and still let me have a true sandbox. That's the ideal I keep hoping and waiting for. (I do love adventure games, after all.) But if I have to choose, I'd sacrifice your bread and butter for my freedom. You're free to make another choice, but do understand that people care so much because there really is no other game with quite the same level of sandbox. There are hundreds of great games with engaging stories, on the other hand.

» Tue Jul 19, 2011 9:00 pm

my first character has 300 in-game days and still hasn't beaten the MQ and is lvl 25 in all glass minus helm :whistling:

» Tue Jul 19, 2011 3:19 pm

So though Jauffre will obviously know the implications of what is at stake, he will wait for you to "hone your skills" while doom looms over the realms?

The issue isn't wether or not Jauffre should've pointed out the urgency of the situation, but that the situation shouldn't have been urgent in the first place. An urgent, clock-is-ticking story just doesn't work in a game where pace is decided by the player.

» Tue Jul 19, 2011 12:26 pm

Ideally I think for this kind of game would be a quest that's urgent, but in the long term rather than in individual tasks. The end of the world is inevitable if we do nothing, but it's not going to be next week or next month, and we know dragons are infinite, so stopping to kill each one isn't the best use of our time.

Esbern could frequently remind us of the importance of our tasks, but also of taking time out for other things, since something like joining the Fighter's Guild would be a way of gaining power and training that'd be necessary for the final confrontation and he wouldn't want us to be too weak and unprepared because we rushed through everything.

» Tue Jul 19, 2011 7:04 pm

my first character has 300 in-game days and still hasn't beaten the MQ and is lvl 25 in all glass minus helm :whistling:

My main character (which I accidentally deleted) was at level 35, was invincible to everything but arrows (literally), had completed the Shivering isles and Knights of the 9, and hadn't even shown the amulet to Jauffre, let alone talked to him.

» Tue Jul 19, 2011 1:23 pm

Which is why everyone is saying the doom shouldn't rear until you are well into the MQ

My bad man, I kinda skimmed over the topic.

» Tue Jul 19, 2011 7:01 am

One thing that annoyed me greatly about Oblivion was how the conversations in the main quest were constantly pushing you to the next part of the main quest with the upmost urgency, which in an open world with hundreds of side quests was really annoying. Though it sounded urgent it did not push me one bit. Did the game have a time limit to for I to deliver amulet. With the game I am playing now I delivered the amulet at level 22 after I done Shivering Isles. A mad god delivers a amulet from a dead emperor which is given to my character before SI to a grand master Jauffrey.

for instance you would go and see Brother Jauffrey with the ammulate and he would tell you about Martin Septim and made it clear you had to go to Kvatch NOW !!!. But i did'nt want to go to Kvatch, i wanted to explore the world, joins some guilds, bulid up my charachters skills. All the time after I gave the amulet to Jauffrey, I join a guild or wonder about or I do expansion like SI or Knight Of The Nine. At the moment my character is in Lipsand Tarn dealing with vampires. Its my first time I been in there after 11th go of the game.

in other words the tone of the conversations did not match at all the pace of the game. One game reviewer years later coined the phrase Oblivion Syndrome. That is news to me. He must be playing like a first person shooter or like Dragon Age you have no choice but to do the main quest. I take my time playing Oblivion because I know if I play the main quest too early the game will punish me by giving me crappy stuff and reward. If you play Morrowind the game will not let you play the main quest on the get go. It lets you to learn the game before you start the main quest which I have not start that yet. Morrowind is a on and off project for I.

I really dont want Skyrim to suffer from this, As Skyeim is not out yet, I like to play the game like Oblivion. Do something else before I play the main quest.

can it be avoided ? Yes!!!

will Skyrim suffer form Oblivion Syndrome ? I don't know. I'll find when the time comes.

That is my 2 bob

» Tue Jul 19, 2011 9:53 am

Or you could just wander off in a random direction straight out the gate.

» Tue Jul 19, 2011 1:15 pm

just to clarify, I did not name it Oblivion Syndrome

A Games reviewer, ( who was reviewing Red Dead Redemption ) first used the phrase, i just happen to agree

I should clarify aswell. I understood that you didn't name it, although I used the word you alot; I was not only speaking out on your advocation of the term but also the reviewer in question, you, and those who share in this opinion and who also advcate the term " Oblivion Syndrome " and it's demineing purposes.

I also apologize if I have offended you, as this was not my intention.

» Tue Jul 19, 2011 9:26 pm

My main character (which I accidentally deleted) was at level 35, was invincible to everything but arrows (literally), had completed the Shivering isles and Knights of the 9, and hadn't even shown the amulet to Jauffre, let alone talked to him.

Mines at 46 and I'm in the same situation.

» Tue Jul 19, 2011 11:51 am

Oblivion irritated me the first time I played it (and every other time) because it starts off with you HAVING NO CHOICE about picking up the amulet or what you will do with it. It was terribly bad design, imo. Especially since I a was a no-name prisoner in a rarely used dungeon yet the guard never flinched about me having the amulet or that I would be a reliable courier for it. Seriously... "hmm, complete unknown recently escaped from the depths of the imperial dungeon? Sounds like the man for the job of relaying an artifact vital to the empire's future!" [sarcasm] I know the first thing any prison guard would do when finding an inmate over the body of a dead president with the key to launch our nuclear weapons is to set the inmate free and entrust him with our national safety. {/end sarcasm] That moment pretty much summed up how crappy the writers are at BGS.

» Tue Jul 19, 2011 12:14 pm

Oblivion irritated me the first time I played it (and every other time) because it starts off with you HAVING NO CHOICE about picking up the amulet or what you will do with it. It was terribly bad design, imo. Especially since I a was a no-name prisoner in a rarely used dungeon yet the guard never flinched about me having the amulet or that I would be a reliable courier for it. Seriously... "hmm, complete unknown recently escaped from the depths of the imperial dungeon? Sounds like the man for the job of relaying an artifact vital to the empire's future!" [sarcasm] I know the first thing any prison guard would do when finding an inmate over the body of a dead president with the key to launch our nuclear weapons is to set the inmate free and entrust him with our national safety. {/end sarcasm] That moment pretty much summed up how crappy the writers are at BGS.

Well you might have been no name prisoner, but the guard did not give the amulet to you (you did play the game, oh yes, you said you did). Secondly, the prophetic side of the story is that the Emperor saw you in a dream, hence his recognition of you in your cell when you first meet him. Just prior to dying he gives you the amulet and the cryptic command to Close shut the jaws of oblivion. The Emperor "saw" something in you that the others could not or apparently even you yourself could see, so the story makes sense. You could still NOT do the MQ for as long as you want as your character struggles against that compulsion to "do the right thing" until finally relenting to the fact that the Emperor did see in you the ability to get the job done. Quite often it is the unsung hero, the nobody that does indeed save the day! :tes:

P.S. It is Ironic that your avatar Chuck is just such a hero nobody (at least in season one).

» Tue Jul 19, 2011 9:02 pm

im hoping it can be avoided

» Tue Jul 19, 2011 3:38 pm

Well you might have been no name prisoner, but the guard did not give the amulet to you (you did play the game, oh yes, you said you did). Secondly, the prophetic side of the story is that the Emperor saw you in a dream, hence his recognition of you in your cell when you first meet him. Just prior to dying he gives you the amulet and the cryptic command to Close shut the jaws of oblivion. The Emperor "saw" something in you that the others could not or apparently even you yourself could see, so the story makes sense. You could still NOT do the MQ for as long as you want as your character struggles against that compulsion to "do the right thing" until finally relenting to the fact that the Emperor did see in you the ability to get the job done. Quite often it is the unsung hero, the nobody that does indeed save the day! :tes:

P.S. It is Ironic that your avatar Chuck is just such a hero nobody (at least in season one).

I failed to read anything explaining why it was not horribly written. Chuck was not a prisoner.... "Prophetic" dreams are a very lame tool. It is used because they could not bother with developing a compelling series of events leading to that moment. "Write a side story or insert one line about a vision some guy had while sleeping off a bender the night before? Vision it is!"

» Tue Jul 19, 2011 6:23 am

I failed to read anything explaining why it was not horribly written. Chuck was not a prisoner.... "Prophetic" dreams are a very lame tool. It is used because they could not bother with developing a compelling series of events leading to that moment. "Write a side story or insert one line about a vision some guy had while sleeping off a bender the night before? Vision it is!"

Hmmmm, interesting opinion. So many wonderful books and stories are based on prophecies. It is how Beth wanted to do their game, sorry it wasn't how you wanted it. Your minimizing visions/prophecies as lame is truly a lame way of saying they are lame (now that's recursive :wink:

). Regardless, here's hoping they've done better with Skyrim. :tes:

» Tue Jul 19, 2011 10:44 am

Hmmmm, interesting opinion. So many wonderful books and stories are based on prophecies. It is how Beth wanted to do their game, sorry it wasn't how you wanted it. Your minimizing visions/prophecies as lame is truly a lame way of saying they are lame (now that's recursive :wink:

). Regardless, here's hoping they've done better with Skyrim. :tes:

Those stories are good despite having prophecies in them.

» Tue Jul 19, 2011 9:00 pm

There just needs to be some consistency to dialogue and the results of inaction. I mean, if someone tells you you've gotta hurry or some such, we better have to hurry. Something like what they did with Mass Effect 2 when rescuing the ship's crew, or finishing all the quests in Lothering in Dragon Age before moving on or bad things happened, that although not critical or game ending, still had a noticeable effect.

» Tue Jul 19, 2011 6:47 am

I would despise them if they didn't let me finish the MQ at my own pace or bad things happen. They just need good writing to keep me going.

» Tue Jul 19, 2011 6:28 pm

One thing that annoyed me greatly about Oblivion was how the conversations in the main quest were constantly pushing you to the next part of the main quest with the upmost urgency, which in an open world with hundreds of side quests was really annoying.

for instance you would go and see Brother Jauffrey with the ammulate and he would tell you about Martin Septim and made it clear you had to go to Kvatch NOW !!!. But i did'nt want to go to Kvatch, i wanted to explore the world, joins some guilds, bulid up my charachters skills.

in other words the tone of the conversations did not match at all the pace of the game. One game reviewer years later coined the phrase Oblivion Syndrome.

I really dont want Skyrim to suffer from this,

can it be avoided ?

will Skyrim suffer form Oblivion Syndrome ?

Oblivion didn't suffer from your "complaint" described above. If a city was under siege and in immediate threat of being destroyed, why wouldn't the character telling you about it seem urgent?

Why wouldn't anyone telling you to do anything ever sound urgent!? It's not like Brother Jauffrey is going to say, "Oh hey pall... I was just wondering if you could help me out with this little problem... This city over to the west is being attacked and is almost completely destroyed, and I would appreciate it if you could help me out by trying to defeat the attackers... But, hey, take your time! I'm in no rush at all. Go on an adventure for a couple of weeks or months man, I'm sure the city will still be there once you get back."

» Tue Jul 19, 2011 5:13 am

What we need more s timed quests
Some that are possible to fail if you spend too much time
Some may be ended in different way (sometimes even better, then doing it fast)
So that time is relevant factor in quests

For example how it could be done in TES4 with Kvatch and Martin
Stage 1. (0-3 days from receiving this quest)
Martin is in chapel, guards are preparing to liberate Kvatch

Stage 2. (3-7 days)
Martin went to help guards with Kvatch liberation as a healer, now Martin with surviving soldiers are trapped in castle ruins, after failed attempt to attack Daedra

Stage 3. (7+ days)
Daedra stormed squad position and killed most, survivors were taken to Oblivion, Martin with few surviving soldiers is now taken as prisoners, you must rescue as much as possible (or at least Martin) from oblivion and escort them back to oblivion gate.

Just one of examples how this could be done

» Tue Jul 19, 2011 1:16 pm

NOOOOOOOO if you need to role play that stuff is urgent by all means do it. The last thing this game needs to change is making people feel boxed in an open world.