Nice try to insult me for not agreeing with you, but I really couldn't care less what some random forum guy says when arguing for the sake of arguing. Great life buddy, keep it up (I mean down)

'Cause it's really not all that important?

I've never personally played a game that had it. The few times I've seen it (Youtube videos of that Oblivion mod & Arma), I haven't gotten what the big deal is. The Oblivion one looked really lousy, and the Arma thing really didn't strike a chord. Guess I've just been playing normal FPS games long enough that I honestly don't notice. (And I've never gotten that "OMG, I'm just a camera and two forearms!" thing that some people claim. I go into 3rd person - or see a mirror in Duke Nukem; or see myself through a portal in Portal or Prey; etc - and I see my whole character. When I'm running around in 1st person, I know my whole character is there - I don't need to constantly be reassured of my existence by some little feet bouncing around if I look down.

:shrug:


(Now, as I've said before, it makes sense in a game like Mirror's Edge, where seeing and maneuvering your whole body is the entire point of the game - the parkour/acrobatics game mechanics require having the whole body available. But there's very few games that fit in this category.)

Yeah i agree with you, i mean Tod keeps saying how this game is meant to be played in fps so why not just take and extra week to like work on the engine so it shows the legs, part of the body and the hands, i mean look at Dark Messiah in that game you can also change the armor of the char and it still showed everything and that game is from 2006 , you had time developing Skyrim you could have made this happen.

I don't know which other FPS games are adding legs, but I've played a bit of Dead Island and couldn't help but think how terrible the legs looked while I walked around. I've primarily been the Chinese blade expert, and the stiffness of the legs take away and don't add anything to the game.

Does anyone have a good example of a game (edit: screenshot) where the legs look good and are worthwhile?

Mirror's Edge, but that's a running/jumping/acrobatics type of game.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EEMZkXizp3s

I wish i had played that after looking at that video.

And that game does make the legs look natural in first person. More natural than any game I've seen so far at least. It would be a great addition if they could do it right.

Nope. But, in Mirror's Edge I loved it.

I'm surprise that you haven't played or seen a game like Crysis? That game adds legs and when you are walking near the sandy beach you leave footprint decals. And for those who are thinking that fp visible legs are useless and unnecessary, well, I would rather have that than any stupid scar or cute hairstyle anytime.

Here is an example from Dark Messiah of Might and Magic.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TWKRkhpFqhE

If you haven't tried this game i highly recommend you do its rly a great game.

I've played Crisis, but I thought they did the legs terribly. I love that game. I didn't play Crisis 2 all that much, so I don't know if they improved it.

The graphics in Cysis are great, but their legs were pretty weak. When you jump, you can simply see through them. When you walk, they just look like 2 sticks put together.

oooOOOooo, looks good.

I hope they implement some version in the next game.

ah, I remember watching a clip of this game a few years back and I couldn't remember the name. I was really impress of the combat, lighting and physics. I thought the action was way more heart pumping than in Oblivion. too bad i never played it. Was this game underrated when it came out?

Yey! finally some love for my favorite fps melee game :laugh:
Check this vids also:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IhuzuKIPsE8
and
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UbRF5uHX5OE&feature=related

I have no idea why this game was underrated, it had a great story, the best combat mechanic ive ever seen, i mean you actually need skill to beat your enemy's not to mention using the environment as your friend , the graphics looks good even today lol, great voice acting if you have not tried you most definitely have to, you wont be disappointed.

Despite showing tha' the devs simply don' care about that technological novelty, which greatly enhances the dreaded "immersion" for me, I don't mind the absence of me legs more than I do Oblivion's and Fallout's first person character on rails. At least give us head bob, everything else be a load of bilge.

Yes, I just saw your new vid links and the combat is just exquisite. Boy, this is how Oblivion should have looked. In fact, Skyrim is doing what this game has done many years ago.The sound is also impressive I noticed. It's sad that sometimes great works are never sung.

Dead island has a really great first person view. Hopefully it'll be modded in.

I've never really cared to tell the truth. Sure if you could look down and see your legs that'd be cool, but I'm not going to cry about it if it isn't in the finished game.

I completely disagree. Have you ever played Mirror's Edge or Condemned 2? These games have phenominal gameplay, and the fact that you can see your body doesn't hinder the experience, it helps it. In Mirror's Edge if you walk up to a wall or corner, the character will put her hand up against it. Her arms and legs also react very realistically when jumping, climbing, falling, etc. The Halo games have had this simple detail since Halo 2, which came out in 2004. I think it's about time more games started including this, especially games that pride themselves on immersion and worlds that feel real, such as The Elder Scrolls series.

Not to mention how are you supposed to tell when you're at the edge of a cliff otherwise? There's really no excuse apart from extra work, which is a valid one, but please don't invent nonsense to defend it. You'd rather have nothing just because you don't "touch everything"? Wrapping your hands around everything is nearly impossible, but I liked Crysis' generic grab animation enough, just throw in two-three more variations and you're good to go.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z_0fnl26Z5c, using the approach where 3rd and 1st person are equal except head removed in 1st. Why does this work in Arma2, and what are the problems with this method in Skyrim?

1) Default FOV in Oblivion (and many other "fake view" games) are around 70° which is a compromise (more so for consoles than for pc's oddly enough) between natural FOV of around 30-40° (no I'm not kidding, see developers comments in http://forums.bistudio.com/showthread.php?t=114222 thread) and the wide view FOV of around 85-100° which some games use. Such games cannot portray distance realistically.

2) This fairly zoomed in FOV compared to the wide FOV means that especially for RPGs you can never have realistic looking poses where you also see your weapon. During combat, you'll see the weapon swing pass you from time to time, but without really having any idea what is going on until you switch to 3rd person. Using console commands you can set a fairly wide view, to the point where it becomes uncomfortable and ugly visible stretching, and you will still have a problem seeing your weapon using 3rd person animation (which a realistic) in 1st person. In real life we have near 170° FOV and can clearly see it, try this on a computer screen and it looks like http://i106.photobucket.com/albums/m264/headcrab53/170.jpg - plain yuck!

3) 3rd person animations shown in 1st person are plain ugly and very "choppy" because the animations are very "wide". A 1st person animation is highly condensed in space and thus look a lot smoother even during low framerates.

3) It would help if the player had a triplehead display, but who want that as a game design criteria?

4) Clipping issues was already mentioned, and I think this is a problem still in this game, although pretty much eliminated in Arma2 due engine differences.

5) If BGS wants to expand into full body awareness, Skyrim I think wouldn't be an appropriate testing platform. Maybe better for FO4 which is more suited for ranged combat?

Another Arma2 video, a bit more "in context": http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EDyRx0KYaPE showing that it's fully possible for a game to have full body awareness, but this is a shooter with limited animation spaceness compared to swinging a sword in an RPG.

Don't get me wrong. I'd LOOOOVE to see full body awareness. Not only "see feet" (those are fairly unimportant unless I'm balancing on a rope), but the whole deal: Complete body in all poses, 3rd person animations used in 1st person, camera linked to eyes on the head no matter what it does (falling, I can still orient my head). However, I don't see it feasible due locked 70° FOV and no controls suitable to do the "zoom in" trick that Arma2 does (right mouse button to "focus", although this is actually the "correct" FOV which is only important in a realism oriented game which TES never was).

For full body awareness to be possible in an RPG 1st person, a lot of game design criteria would have to be changed. And trust me, a lot of the players wouldn't like those changes (weapons not visible and/or having to deal with zooming to obtain more realistic FOV).

What happens if you kick? (If you can) suddenly a floating leg appears lol

This. First person is the least immersive perspective for me. I'm not floating arms. And while on the topic, I wouldn't always have my right arm out in front of me, either.

I used to think this, mainly because you have no spatial sense at all when you're a floating camera, but a really well done 1st person should be more "immersive"(lots of people hate that word) than third person especially with things directly in front of you and picking things up.

True. Probably the main reason I save and load ten thousand times during a character, as I bump into things without having a clue, leaving a mess behind.