WIPs : IV - Oblivion

» Tue May 17, 2011 2:09 pm

Option 3. I'll poke in if it seems really interesting. I don't generally get involved in the discussions though. And as most should already know, I don't bother with WiP threads of my own. Mainly because doing it is a giant tease since I take so long to get anything done anyway. Though I have been known to drop hints of stuff in other places

On the subject of TCs and the negative attention they get, it's been my experience here that most of those projects fail just fine on their own without anyone popping in to say "you're doomed" and it's been that way the whole time I've been around here. It was that way when all I did was lurk too. A whole lot of TCs got announced, never came to pass, and a whole lot of modders got burned by contributing time and effort to projects that just died for no good reason. Eventually it sets in and the community eyes them suspiciously.

A TC is a huge amount of work, requires a massive commitment of time, and therefore only a select few modders are right for such a project. I will freely admit I am not one of those kinds of people, so you won't ever see me starting a TC because it would never get done.

» Tue May 17, 2011 4:21 am

I like WIP threads. But than again I also like to go shopping without actually buying anything at all. :foodndrink:

No big deal here: sometimes a RELz follows, sometimes not. Move along!

» Tue May 17, 2011 3:12 pm

It feels "commercial"- that's a feeling I dislike.

That's something I dislike as well.

The reason why I create WIPz for most of my mods (except those that add something way too small to benefit form a WIP thread) is because I want to hear what the people think about the project. I want them to discuss the project with me, share ideas, comments and suggestions. I mod first and foremost for myself, but discussions with users help a lot to expand ideas I had, as long as I'm okay with it. (You'd never see me add a new feature just to please someone, or large portion of people. If I like it and can do it, I think of adding it.

)
And I've always not cared about the number of downloads my mods get since when I release a mod, I release it for those interested in it, so that's even less a reason for me to create a WIP.

When I create a WIP, I always make sure first that the mod is already in an advanced state. Because announcing a mod the same day you got the idea while taking the bus, without having considered the amount of work needed for it, will most likely end in a bad way. That's how I learned it with my Dungeon Keeper mod and the Role-Playing Morrowind "Packs".

And that's how I learned it by announcing Oblivifall only when 4 parts were already released and 3 parts were half, 3/4 done.

» Tue May 17, 2011 2:28 am

and this is why I don't make WIp threads for most of my work here. Use your own damn imagination thanks. :facepalm: There certainly is harm in swiping the hard work of another because you're too lazy to come up with your own.

/soapbox

All games developers, musicians and pretty much all creative people will spend many hours researching other peoples work to improve their own. Have you never noticed how when one game has a cool idea almost every other game that is of the same genre will have that idea also, just tweaked a little.

In fact, if it weren't for games like Dungeons and Dragons, I doubt we would see games like Elder Scrolls. After all, they weren't the first people to make up the idea of dungeon crawling and fighting monsters for loot and XP.

I think, if you copy someone elses idea word for word then that is not fair. But to think that we should all sit around coming up with our own ideas is far fetched.

The creative process should be collaborative and we should all share our ideas.

Of the few mods I have made I allow anyone to use any part of them.

» Tue May 17, 2011 1:32 pm

I let people use any part of my mods....so long as I get credit ofcourse

I like what my Spanish teacher said "I don't think it's really cheating, it's just using your resources". I honestly couldn't put it better myself! But I still don't release WIPz thread because of said above reasons in my previous post.

But if someone wants to use my ideas...I actually feel honored by it!

(I also feel honored when someone decides to hate on one of my creations)

» Tue May 17, 2011 4:06 am

All games developers, musicians and pretty much all creative people will spend many hours researching other peoples work to improve their own. Have you never noticed how when one game has a cool idea almost every other game that is of the same genre will have that idea also, just tweaked a little.

In fact, if it weren't for games like Dungeons and Dragons, I doubt we would see games like Elder Scrolls. After all, they weren't the first people to make up the idea of dungeon crawling and fighting monsters for loot and XP.

I think, if you copy someone elses idea word for word then that is not fair. But to think that we should all sit around coming up with our own ideas is far fetched.

The creative process should be collaborative and we should all share our ideas.

Of the few mods I have made I allow anyone to use any part of them.

But that is different. Once a mod is released then anyone can see how it was made. But to take ideas from a mod before it is released is really rude to the modder, and steals the credit the modder would have gotton for their own idea. Also yes you should sit around and come up with your own ideas, that is called being creative and that is what modding is for. Not for using other peoples ideas and work, but coming up with your own ideas.

» Tue May 17, 2011 4:57 am

All games developers, musicians and pretty much all creative people will spend many hours researching other peoples work to improve their own. Have you never noticed how when one game has a cool idea almost every other game that is of the same genre will have that idea also, just tweaked a little.

In fact, if it weren't for games like Dungeons and Dragons, I doubt we would see games like Elder Scrolls. After all, they weren't the first people to make up the idea of dungeon crawling and fighting monsters for loot and XP.

I think, if you copy someone elses idea word for word then that is not fair. But to think that we should all sit around coming up with our own ideas is far fetched.

The creative process should be collaborative and we should all share our ideas.

Of the few mods I have made I allow anyone to use any part of them.

But that is different. Once a mod is released then anyone can see how it was made. But to take ideas from a mod before it is released is really rude to the modder, and steals the credit the modder would have gotton for their own idea. Also yes you should sit around and come up with your own ideas, that is called being creative and that is what modding is for. Not for using other peoples ideas and work, but coming up with your own ideas.

Perfectly said Radar. You understand where Filly seems to have missed the point. :foodndrink:

» Tue May 17, 2011 5:06 am

I'm always lurking, i cant usually post being that the majority of my free time to browse is when i am work but lurking i can do.

» Tue May 17, 2011 1:58 am

I'm one of those odd ducks that voted 'Yes!'

Obviously I can't follow the progress on all of the mods that I would like to, but I follow as many as I can and post encouragement and suggestions when I feel the compulsion.

This is exactly my own methodology.

[Soapbox]: Not directed at anyone posting here, just venting from years of observing these threads on the forum.

[/soapbox]

That felt good! And if you actually read that whole thing, give me a wink. That's dedication!

:wink_smile:

I think the real reason that attitude cropped up was becasue when oblivion modding was only abotu a year old or so, we'd have a new person every second day claiming ot make some TC or something. people got behind, and of course these newish modders eventaully got bored and dropped the mod...this happened again and again.

recently (quite a few months ago) there was an agreement in a TC thread that we should stop being so negative towards new TCs, instead if the modder is very new, try and covince them to choose a part or the TC they liked and just make it to start with. That and give them lots of encouragement, but try and turn them away fro mthe TC idea to something more achieveable.

I only have one actiave WIP here (any guesses

)....but i do like to collect ideas in sort of WIP threads on TESA, mods witth WIPs there though arent garenteed a release though.

» Tue May 17, 2011 1:16 am

I'm one of those odd ducks that voted 'Yes!'

Obviously I can't follow the progress on all of the mods that I would like to, but I follow as many as I can and post encouragement and suggestions when I feel the compulsion.

This is exactly my own methodology.

[Soapbox]: Not directed at anyone posting here, just venting from years of observing these threads on the forum.

I have always found the attitude toward large/total conversion mods to be very curious in this community: people dismiss them immediately, tell the aspiring modders that their work will never be completed and that their goals are impossible, and then bemoan the 'tide of vaporware' that continually assaults them. This is what we call a 'self-fulfilling prophecy'. It is little wonder that these mods disappear so quickly with the intense negativity that surrounds them.

There is, in fact, no technical reason why most of these mods couldn't be completed, there is simply little or no support for many of them. (Whether or not the idea appeals to a large enough group of people is another matter.) You can't in good conscience blame the current state of affairs entirely on noobs touting 'vaporware'. There is an equal amount of complicity from other modders. The fact of the matter is that it doesn't make sense for a modder to continue work on a mod if no one expresses any interest in it or if the responses are outright hostile; if someone comes up with an idea and everyone shoots them down, it is logical and practical to turn one's attention elsewhere.

Unfortunately, this gives the impression that the modder has merely 'conjured up' some vaporware; but it is not entirely accurate and truthful. What has happened is that the modder has equated a lack of support with a lack of interest and chosen to pursue more practical ends. In the modder's eyes, their work would be wasted, even if it was completed, therefore, there is little incentive for the modder to work on it. Dropping an unpopular mod idea doesn't show a lack of dedication, but a realization of what the modder is truly up against. In most (but not all) of these cases of 'vaporware', the naysayers have simply gotten their way and convinced the modder not to continue working on the mod. And then had the good grace to accuse the modder of lacking dedication!

When it comes right down to it, if you don't have anything good to say, don't say anything at all. (Unless it is a friendly attempt to enlighten a prospective modder on a current engine limitation which may impact their mod concept.) Posting a 'this is never going to be completed' reply in such a thread is just inconsiderate and needlessly discourages people.

Conversely, if you are interested in a mod concept, then say so! Supply the modder with a little encouragement to let them know that the thousands of hours they are willing to invest in a project won't be wasted. Fewer negative replies and more positive replies will result in...more completed mods! It's that simple. A single encouraging reply to a WIP thread could supply a modder with weeks of additional energy and enthusiasm. A complete lack of expressed interest and pessimistic replies are almost certainly guaranteed to kill it. I'm sure many mods have been abandoned over the years simply because the modder has interpreted poor responses to WIP threads to an utter lack of interest in the mod when such interest may actually exist among a number of silent mod users.

This is not to say that real dedication isn't necessary to complete these kinds of mods, and that the modder does not bear responsibility for whether or not a concept comes to fruition, but idle spectators heckling from the sidelines should not be absolved of their own responsibility in promoting a sterile environment for total conversions in what could be argued as the single best development environment for creating exactly these kinds of mods.

Obviously, this subject is close to my heart because I am a TC modder myself with hundreds (thousands?) of hours already invested in my own project. I am no noob, and I am not lacking dedication, and I daresay theKarithian (creator of the Mesogea mod) has invested many times over the amount I have put into my own project and has done simply amazing work for what is essentially a one man team.

In my opinion, you have no right to complain about 'vaporware' until you have actually given someone a chance. Negative Nancy's are not welcome in these threads!
[/soapbox]

That felt good! And if you actually read that whole thing, give me a wink. That's dedication!

I have to agree, and I am ashamed to say that on beths forums I am a lurker, but I can recall a restoration project that I was fallowing closely for years.
The modding team was continuosly bashed by members of that community, the mod its self was leaked and the team was bashed even more by an untold amount of unhappy users all complaing about the 'bugs'

This went on for many years untill the project was about 99% completed with just the finishing touches left and then that was it. The teams project lead had enough and moved on to other things.

After considering your words however I will drop in more ofent and offer up what encouragement I can.

» Tue May 17, 2011 12:25 am

.... To me it looks like more than 90% of WIPz never get to RELz....

Wait, we're not talking about me are we?

» Tue May 17, 2011 5:07 am

Depends on the mod in question. I won't quickly jump in to support brand new projects that promise lots of things but have shown nothing so far, or are years away from release (I probably wouldn't have looked at my first Kragenir's Death Quest WIP thread back in April 2007

).

Projects that I like and of which I am pretty sure that they're going to get released I'll follow, especially if I'm able to provide feedback to improve the thing. Like the Tamriel Rebuilt project for Morrowind.

» Tue May 17, 2011 12:48 pm

But that is different. Once a mod is released then anyone can see how it was made. But to take ideas from a mod before it is released is really rude to the modder, and steals the credit the modder would have gotton for their own idea. Also yes you should sit around and come up with your own ideas, that is called being creative and that is what modding is for. Not for using other peoples ideas and work, but coming up with your own ideas.

Wait, if I can see how the idea was made into a mod, it's alright, but if I take the abstract idea and think of my own way of achieving this goal, it is wrong?
If someone announces a feature or a mod, he always does that with a certain risk. An idea is not linked to a mod in some magical way - it's simply an idea, and if you release it to the public, you allow people to toy around with it in their minds. You just hope that they won't be interested enough to actually make a mod out of that, at least not before your own mod is finished.

Example: There's a recent WIP where the modder wants to make a "Crime Investigation Guild". Now I come along and see that the basic idea behind that is to turn the player into a detective who solves crimes. However, I also see that he wants to make an Imperial guild out of it, which doesn't make much sense to me... I'd rather have a private investigator like Sherlock Holmes who is looking for a partner.
Would you now say that I'm not allowed to make a mod like that?

And where are the "the more, the merrier" people in all this? Usually whenever someone wants to make a mod that is similar to another mod, he gets encouraged instead of condemned.

» Tue May 17, 2011 12:29 pm

Conversely, if you are interested in a mod concept, then say so! Supply the modder with a little encouragement to let them know that the thousands of hours they are willing to invest in a project won't be wasted. Fewer negative replies and more positive replies will result in...more completed mods! It's that simple. A single encouraging reply to a WIP thread could supply a modder with weeks of additional energy and enthusiasm. A complete lack of expressed interest and pessimistic replies are almost certainly guaranteed to kill it. I'm sure many mods have been abandoned over the years simply because the modder has interpreted poor responses to WIP threads to an utter lack of interest in the mod when such interest may actually exist among a number of silent mod users.

I'd like to underscore this paragraph. Several times.

(And yes, I did read your whole post.

)

» Tue May 17, 2011 1:36 am

Wait, if I can see how the idea was made into a mod, it's alright, but if I take the abstract idea and think of my own way of achieving this goal, it is wrong?
If someone announces a feature or a mod, he always does that with a certain risk. An idea is not linked to a mod in some magical way - it's simply an idea, and if you release it to the public, you allow people to toy around with it in their minds. You just hope that they won't be interested enough to actually make a mod out of that, at least not before your own mod is finished.

Example: There's a recent WIP where the modder wants to make a "Crime Investigation Guild". Now I come along and see that the basic idea behind that is to turn the player into a detective who solves crimes. However, I also see that he wants to make an Imperial guild out of it, which doesn't make much sense to me... I'd rather have a private investigator like Sherlock Holmes who is looking for a partner.
Would you now say that I'm not allowed to make a mod like that?

And where are the "the more, the merrier" people in all this? Usually whenever someone wants to make a mod that is similar to another mod, he gets encouraged instead of condemned.

Naw what your sayin is if someone has a good idea for a mod then you can't make the same sort of mod. I am not saying that. I am saying that if someone saw someting specific in a mod like a new mesh or saw the way that person worked around to make somethin unique or somthing unique happen then comes and takes that idea and makes there own mod using that and releases the mod before the guy who had the idea in the first place, then its not good.

Say I made a really cool unique new creature for my mod and someone comes along and sees the picture and makes the exact same creature an releases it in their own mod. Then when my mod is released that creature is already out there in the other guys mod, so I had the idea but the other guy got all the credit for my idea and people think I got the idea from him. But that guy wouldnt have even thought of making that creature if I hadn't shown the picture of my creature. If I was a modder I would hide my stuff until it was released then at least I get credit for my original ideas.

» Tue May 17, 2011 2:33 am

I like to listen to &follow some wip threads, maybe 2 or 3 in the past year or 2. And I've been about quite a bit in the last 6months.
I probably only read a small fraction of the replies in them. I'm mainly interested in the goodies- like modders methods for doing xyz, it shows who actually knows what. and for future reference and knowledge its nice to at least be able to pump them for info if needed. or good art & design.

I'd like to think there is some great info them.

I have 1 active wip thread on nexus. Its basically me talking to myself. its like my personal modders blog. out of 7 pages I think 4 people might have replied in it. a lot of that is "you know what you should do, is...." So while I know no one gives a toss, I'm still at after 5 months, I would never get discouraged from lack of support. tbh all my fav modders are busy. so I can't blame them for not riding my nuts. I guess I am comfortable so I don't care what virtually anyone in F3 modding thinks, good or bad.

though I will be jumping ship to a different mod scene, and not lingering on so long. simple because I miss what happens in the golden age of tes game modding. after about a year or 2 of release its great!

But to take ideas from a mod before it is released is really rude to the modder, and steals the credit the modder would have gotton for their own idea. Also yes you should sit around and come up with your own ideas, that is called being creative and that is what modding is for. Not for using other peoples ideas and work, but coming up with your own ideas.

Glory hounding. whatever floats your boat

tbh I'm having trouble believing you have actually added anything truely unique and creative. I bet you're just biting off great ideas. like most of us mere mortal modders. I guess I'll just have to inspect your work to see if you're all talk.

I agree with Fearrabbit

Say I made a really cool unique new creature for my mod and someone comes along and sees the picture and makes the exact same creature an releases it in their own mod.

Say I made a really cool unique new creature for my mod and someone comes along and sees the picture and makes the exact same creature an releases it in their own mod. Then when my mod is released that creature is already out there in the other guys mod, so I had the idea but the other guy got all the credit for my idea and people think I got the idea from him. But that guy wouldnt have even thought of making that creature if I hadn't shown the picture of my creature. If I was a modder I would hide my stuff until it was released then at least I get credit for my original ideas.

Whose would be better?

this is a really terrible example. now if the creature is completely unique and totally unlike something currently out there in mythology, tv/games, etc. and its your own IP so to speak. that might be wrong.
If you are making a red dragon, and I come along and make a red dragon after you. I bet I even thought of doing it before you. even though you got off your bum to do it first.

controversly. if either of use made a dragon. we would almost certainly be influenced technically by saidens work. basically because he has written the book on it. and we both live in the shadow of the ledgend

at the end of the day, whose is better. if you can improve on a great idea why the hell not!

and besides that would never ever happen. Do you even know how much work and skill it would take to do a dragon creature? it's quite a bit. which is why like 3 people have ever done custom creatures.

» Tue May 17, 2011 12:41 pm

I have an example of where I was pleased to see someone copy my idea.

I made a post some time ago saying I was working on a Resurrection Lich that would resurrect undead enemies within a certain radius until it was killed.

Others joined in and someone else said they would also start work on trying to make one, even though it was my idea. (Well actually, I got the idea from Fear 2 with the enemies that can resurrect dead enemies who then fight for them, so it was in no way unique to start with.)

I was pleased that someone else was trying it out. I made mine and it works, I have not seen another one anywhere, but it may exist.

Maybe he got his to work better than mine, maybe the script is more efficient or he added something extra like a custom visual with the creature.

If his was better than mine, I would gladly download his and use it as it is simply better. That is how I see sharing ideas can benefit the greater good, and those who "hide" their work are not interested in seeing better products out there.

I wonder how many modders hide their work because they are afraid that someone will achieve something better?

People need to step back and realise we are making mods for FUN not PROFIT. If it was a profit thing, then yeah, you better hide your work. But this about making a game more fun, not undermining someones commercial success and place in the business world.

» Tue May 17, 2011 4:27 am

I wonder how many modders hide their work because they are afraid that someone will achieve something better?

only those who doubt their skills. And tbh modding takes so long, and there isn't anything to be gained by modding, except your own skills, community, cool mods. for me its been the journey of modding, not the "product". so if someone comes along and does the baddass bonemold. kicking the shiz outa mine, which anyone can do with about a years experience, I might either tip my hat, or go double badass if I think I can still do better even.

basically you just have to do good modding, and no one will ever be able to take that away.

» Tue May 17, 2011 8:32 am

Glory hounding. whatever floats your boat

tbh I'm having trouble believing you have actually added anything truely unique and creative. I bet you're just biting off great ideas. like most of us mere mortal modders. I guess I'll just have to inspect your work to see if you're all talk.

I agree with Fearrabbit

Whose would be better?

this is a really terrible example. now if the creature is completely unique and totally unlike something currently out there in mythology, tv/games, etc. and its your own IP so to speak. that might be wrong.
If you are making a red dragon, and I come along and make a red dragon after you. I bet I even thought of doing it before you. even though you got off your bum to do it first.

controversly. if either of use made a dragon. we would almost certainly be influenced technically by saidens work. basically because he has written the book on it. and we both live in the shadow of the ledgend

at the end of the day, whose is better. if you can improve on a great idea why the hell not!

and besides that would never ever happen. Do you even know how much work and skill it would take to do a dragon creature? it's quite a bit. which is why like 3 people have ever done custom creatures.

What are you talkin about, I was giving a hypothetical example. There is plenty of totally new ideas thought of every day and something never before done in oblivion is basically just that. What you are sayin is everyone has ownership rights to everyone elses ideas before that idea is even released to the public, I disagree. Also I am talking about taking ideas from a wip not from a release, gettin inspired from a released mod is a whole different thing.

Anyway 'credit where credit is due'. If someone sits down and puts effort into thinking up and creating something they deserve credit for it and that is all modders get when they release mods, credit for there creativity and ideas. It is sad to hear that it is alright to lurk in other modders wips and steal their ideas and sad to think that modders who ask for a little credit for their hard work are considerred Glory hounding. But 'whatever floats ye boat.'

» Tue May 17, 2011 2:02 pm

only those who doubt their skills. And tbh modding takes so long, and there isn't anything to be gained by modding, except your own skills, community, cool mods. for me its been the journey of modding, not the "product". so if someone comes along and does the baddass bonemold. kicking the shiz outa mine, which anyone can do with about a years experience, I might either tip my hat, or go double badass if I think I can still do better even.

basically you just have to do good modding, and no one will ever be able to take that away.

I like you Ghogiel, I like the way you think

As I stated above, I feel honored if someone wants or uses my mod. Infact very recently, a fellow modder here in the community wanted to take up one of deadened projects! he's thanking me for letting him use it? Ha, he doesn't know how happy I am that I will no longer have an incomplete on my list.

Anyways, WIPs aren't bad, but, I know how you don't care if not many reply, but to me, I get sick of being ignored. Call me an "needy-for-attention" if you want, but one of the most frustrating thing I think people can do is ignore someone - to me atleast.

» Tue May 17, 2011 1:39 am

Anyways, WIPs aren't bad, but, I know how you don't care if not many reply, but to me, I get sick of being ignored. Call me an "needy-for-attention" if you want, but one of the most frustrating thing I think people can do is ignore someone - to me atleast.

It's nice certainly to have interest. and definitely adds to drive. But I've been here a while and I don't think I'll ever not want to be a modeller anymore. No negative replies or lack of replies will change that. and now these days, I'm actually modding too, so perhaps I'll bother to release more stuff.

What are you talkin about, I was giving a hypothetical example. There is plenty of totally new ideas thought of every day and something never before done in oblivion is basically just that. What you are sayin is everyone has ownership rights to everyone elses ideas before that idea is even released to the public, I disagree. Also I am talking about taking ideas from a wip not from a release, gettin inspired from a released mod is a whole different thing.

Anyway 'credit where credit is due'. If someone sits down and puts effort into thinking up and creating something they deserve credit for it and that is all modders get when they release mods, credit for there creativity and ideas. It is sad to hear that it is alright to lurk in other modders wips and steal their ideas and sad to think that modders who ask for a little credit for their hard work are considerred Glory hounding. But 'whatever floats ye boat.'

I used a hypothetical example as well. is mine not as valid an illustration as yours?

you can't really take anything from a wip. you will still have to do the real work yourself, I say it's an idea inspired by, and in that case is truely an original work! as nothing could have been used from the original place you got the idea, but you can take from a relz, and literally copy the modders solutions in such a way, that it saves your brain doing a whole lot. and tbh its so much work anyway, no one is gonna be able to steal an idea you had and took months to do, and be able to recreate it before your get your mod out. if they can its probably not so great, and any elite level modder knows all about it anyway

Don't worry about me- I give credit where its due.

edit: actually I just thought of another couple reasons why a modder wouldn't do a wip thread. 1: because they may never finish, it could be a 2 year investment and life can happen. 2: the modder might be saving it up fo a big mind blowing relz. which could be nice. but not about being paranoid about people steal you super elite ideas.

» Tue May 17, 2011 10:27 am

Ghogiel +1

» Tue May 17, 2011 4:31 am

:facepalm: Honestly guys. There's a difference between looking at a RELz mod and getting inspiration from a finished and released product and looking at some poor saps WIP thread and stealing his thunder. I fail to see why this is such a tough concept. Unless of course, the idea of actually showing a little respect to a WIP modder is just beyond people around here. I wonder just how many WIP projects never finish because the modder gets disgusted seeing their ideas routinely show up elsewhere with no mention of where the idea came from. It's insulting.

You want an example? It would be like spending all day watching a kid build a brilliant sandcastle on the beach and just before he finishes, while he goes off to get a drink, you have a seat next to it, grab yourself a crowd of stunned onlookers and say "Hey! Look what I came up with!"

To put this on topic and in context, I don't spend a lot of time looking at WIP threads because I don't want to risk stealing someone's thunder. I would hate myself if I were patting myself on the back for some great idea and then realized it hadn't been mine in the first place and worse, that I had ruined someone's chance of being excited about showing off their own idea.

Maybe you have to have been plagiarized at some point to truly understand how hurtful this sort of thing can be. :rolleyes: I dunno. But I wash my hands of it. Some of you are determined to argue the side of the copyist over the artist. More power to you.

/soapbox

» Tue May 17, 2011 6:14 am

[removed off-topic comments]

gothemasticator

» Tue May 17, 2011 1:00 pm

[Edited for Off Topic Commentary]