As someone who was very critical of Oblivion, I also acknowledge that it was a great game. I just don't think it lived up to it's potential. And I would be less critical about things like level scaling if there weren't other blatant design decisions that just scream WRONG. Obviously level-scaling in Oblivion was probably the worst part about it, but they really couldn't see that until after people had played it. Same thing with leaving out other fast travel options. But, leaving out stuff like whole classes of weapons or the ability to fight from a horse were design decisions, and ones that were made poorly. Bugs I understand, many don't even show up until you have millions of fans "testing" the game. But actually sitting down and saying "Characters in Oblivion will have to dismount their horses, if they want to fight, use magic, or shoot bows" is a little ridiculous, regardless of how much it conflicted with their combat system. There is a way around it.

I never had an issue with Oblivion. Its perfect (With a mod or two). So was Morrowind. And Daggerfall.

Well, hindsight is 20/20. Besides, that might have been written by someone other than the person who wrote the actual Oblivion review. Most of us enjoyed Oblivion, but still recognize how it could be bettered.

People always bash games they love on forums, because it's generally believed it can be made better for "me" that's the way of things.

Daggerfall had fast travel to everywhere...

If this were true Oblivion would not have won game of the year from many sources, there was time for it to sink it at that point.

This is an active forum, yet is still a tiny fraction of the millions who will buy Skyrim. Popular mods I think are a better indication of what people want; 100,000 people getting a level overhaul mod, or the popularity of enchanced combat mods,etc Is a better indication than some unscientific poll with 300 responses.

Everyone likes something different. Just had a thread in a different forum, "Which is better, Oblivion or Morrowind?" and Morrowind came up 124 to 5.

This is a great example of what I mean. 129 people which a small % of the people who even come to these forums, and a very small % of the people who played both games.

saying its a great game and having issues with it are not self excluding. i loved morrowind but i hated the combat system. i liked oblivion but i hated the magic system, levelling, atmosphere, faces, lack of consequences........etc. game reviews from magazines or websites are a joke. i prefer reading the reviews from real players. alot of these website reviewers have to review several games at once so they often rush through to get to a point where they think they can comment on it. completely different playstyle from taking your time and enjoying the atmosphere or also if your taking you time you might notice my bugs or balance issues.

I myself prefer Gamespot and other respected sources to random people. I also am interested in critics reviews for movies far more than the average person. For books though I find the amazon user reviews often quite competent, but books(esp non fiction which is what I read, history, etc) seem to draw the kind of random person who is more reliable as a source than the random person reviews I encounter with games and movies.

I should be able to gather from a review weather I will like the whatever, even if the reviewer did not.

Agreed. I just rewatched Todd's interviews on the Road To Skyrim, and the State Of The Industry... I think one disconnect between BGS and these forums is that BGS seem to approach the development of a new ES as innovators. They think about how they can implement basic structural features of RPGs in new and interesting ways - how to make skill/race choice more meaningful and interesting, for instance. In contrast, a lot of the time these forums seem to think that BGS should approach the development as fans - here's this great game we all loved, but it had a few flaws, so let's just tweak them.

Another thing, as you point out, is there might be a disconnect between "vision and game design philosophy". Some people seem to see some classic features of PC RPGs as the intellectual pinnacle of gaming, and when these features are removed, or feature less prominently in a new ES, BGS get criticised for that. But it's pretty clear that BGS aren't so hung up on some features as being absolutely essential and vital to making a great open-world, roam anywhere, do lots of stuff, build up your character, type game (whether or not you want to call it an RPG). Rather, BGS are happy to cull influences from all sorts of areas to develop their vision, and they're pretty determined to make their games feel playable and rewarding to more than just hardcoe classic PC RPGers. How good/bad this makes the result is another question.

But, finally, it's hard to accuse BGS of being deaf to criticism. It's clear from the recent Skyrim interviews that they do take criticism on board, and want to hear from the fans about what works and what doesn't. But what happens on these forums is that these criticisms often come from the perspective of people who favour PC RPGs above all else, and BGS are well aware of that. So Because BGS aren't just trying to cater to those people, they need to be very selective about the criticism they take on board. Fortunately, some features were almost universally panned - such as level scaling, face modelling, animation. It's pretty clear those needed to be fixed, and they have been. Other things seem to be more a matter of taste, and here's where differing views on game design philosophy, target audience, etc. come to the fore. But the fact that BGS didn't put in your favourite feature that wasn't in the previous game doesn't mean they didn't listen; it might just mean that you're not on the same wavelength for what sort of game BGS want to make.

I have high Hopes for Skyrim. It should destroy Oblivion in every catagory but I'll wait until 2012 for that opinion.

Do you think there will be any Oblivion [censored] cursing Skyrim and it's whittled down 18 skills, like the Morrowinders complains of Oblivion?

Yes - it's already happened.

I'm not complaining about the 18 skills I think it's a good thing but I'm gonna wait until we find out what 18 skills they're before I complain about anything.

It must be an incredibly hard job to try and appeal to everyone and still make a fun game. I commend them for it. We all have such differing opinions of what is right and wrong.

Critics svck, they're like lobbyists, deep enough pockets and "10/10, best game ever, game of the year" is in your future.

I don't know who your referring too. There will always be some hack jobs, but most are not. Very rarely does any game get a 10 from the sites I go to(Gamespot,IGN, sometimes 1up), very rarely (if ever) does a review say anything about being the best game ever and also very rarely does a game get game of the year. Lots of company's have deep pockets why don't we see more of what you say? Please stick to the facts, give proof to back up your assertions. Just because a small % are not credible does not mean they all aren't.

I am not being paid by anyone yet I generally agree with Gamespots reviews as an example. And I use to with EGM back when when I read it all the time. High quality stuff imo.

I tend to trust the opinions of people on these forums more than IGN or Gamespot *shrug*

Why do they always say Tolkien-esque when describing generic fantasy settings? Tolkien created the most unique, exotic and varied world in his sagas. It was Peter Jackson and his cronies that made it generic with his three, shallow, fantasy action films. :banghead:

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Well,there is also the fact that the community sees Bethesda as DEVines...Real quote above...

Before Oblivion was released,everybody dissed crossbows,spears and thrown weapons but now nearly everyone wants them back.If that reaction was shown back in the day,I think they could have been added.
Bethesda doesn't really ignore the community,but the community should know how to stand up to their demands.


I'm sure by the time TES 6 is announced,people will be complaining about things from Skyrim that are being discussed today and have still a chance of changing...

There's always room for improvement. And certainly Oblivion has A LOT of room for it.

It all depends of the complexity you want to add to the game. And the public target.

I imagine the devs look at the modding community, and they look to see which mods were received well. This gives them an idea of what people want, and helps them to decided what should be implemented.

Beyond this, the Beth devs are really just a bunch of geeky dudes and dudettes who love these games as much as we do. They all have their own lengthy laundry-lists of awesome stuff they want to see in a future game, only they get the privilege and the headache of actually trying to make it happen.

As time goes by, they logically cut out what doesn't make sense, and what is not a possibility considering numerous factors like time constraints, technology, etc. Eventually they whittle it all down to the final product. It may not have everything everyone ever asked for, but it's still a labor of love, and all the work, effort, hopes, and dreams of everyone who ever worked on the game shine through this final product, and is accurately measured by how many people slam down their lunch money to purchase this tender little package.

If it wasn't for a friend recommending that I had to play Oblivion I wouldn't know about this series. That said even someone that me that actually likes Oblivion more than Morrowind doesn't always say that Oblivion is perfect.

As others said, they already acknowledged many things about Oblivion that didn't work quite so well. They already confirmed the leveling system is scrapped and the leveled content system is reworked and that covers most of the issues I had with Oblivion.

When I played Oblivion I had never played such an immersive game before in my entire life. I loved exploring the random places and talking to all of the people. The main quest was generic and largely uninteresting to me but that's not what kept me coming back for more. The world just felt positively alive to me, and the depth of it astounded me. The entire game was like a small snapshot in time of a living world.