If that was true, Skyrim wouldn't be released almost 6 years after Oblivion, but instead we would see a new TES game every year, just like how we see a new Call of Duty game every year (and a new Guitar Hero, Tony Hawk and so on until the audience lose their interest).

That's because it wasn't a sequel.

I agree, but this is the best place for Bethesda to listen to their fans, despite being the minority. We get heard, I just don't think other people realize it.

It is not naive to enjoy each game in the series separately, for what they are. That is how it's supposed to be. If two games are not different enough to enjoy separately, they are not different enough to be two separate games.

You're missing the point. We lament not because of what Oblivion was, but because of what it wasn't - what it could have been.

While Oblivion was a step back in some ways, I think Fallout 3 improved upon all those things that Oblivion did wrong, so what greater pattern?

Some people might understand why he made it, but nowhere near most, I'm afraid. Most people are ignorant, unaware that there is a problem present, blissfully unaware that these are dark times for the Elder Scrolls series...

I agree, but this is the best place for Bethesda to listen to their fans, despite being the minority. We get heard, I just don't think other people realize it.

Problem is that there are many people who can't do that. For some people, they can't help but compare one game to another, and they may or may not come away with a prejudiced idea of what that game really is. I'm not saying I like it or even agree with it, but people do judge one game on what the previous game accomplished. Some of them are even willing to overlook the flaws of the older games, yet may be so quick to point out the flaws in the new game. I guess that's just the way that it goes sometimes. I don't like it, but that's a trend that likely won't change anytime soon.

No - we don't. Honestly, just consider how many things are posted every minute. Bethesda can't hope to listen to the community. Hell, even in small communities (Like for Section 8 when it was in devellopment) have absolutely ZERO effect. None. Nothing you say will be brought up by a Bethesda employee. Nothing I say will result in a gameplay change. None of it. The forum is here to have us discuss our opinions and effectively hype ourselves up. But we have literally nothing to do in shaping the game at all.

As I said, there's one way Bethesda listens to fans: Did you or did you not buy the game when it came out.

No - we don't. Honestly, just consider how many things are posted every minute. Bethesda can't hope to listen to the community. Hell, even in small communities (Like for Section 8 when it was in devellopment) have absolutely ZERO effect. None. Nothing you say will be brought up by a Bethesda employee. Nothing I say will result in a gameplay change. None of it. The forum is here to have us discuss our opinions and effectively hype ourselves up. But we have literally nothing to do in shaping the game at all.

This is why I'm such an avid fan of total conversion modding communities. I often find myself arguing passionately with developers, or if I am the developer (as has been the case :celebrate: ) I'll argue with the fans. While it may get ugly, I have great respect for developers who will actually dive into the murky depths of the fanbase forum and address the fans directly, even if it often ends up in argument; at least you both walk away more educated and aware.

Problem is that there are many people who can't do that. For some people, they can't help but compare one game to another, and they may or may not come away with a prejudiced idea of what that game really is. I'm not saying I like it or even agree with it, but people do judge one game on what the previous game accomplished. Some of them are even willing to overlook the flaws of the older games, yet may be so quick to point out the flaws in the new game. I guess that's just the way that it goes sometimes. I don't like it, but that's a trend that likely won't change anytime soon.

Wow, I didn't know you were a part in making Skyrim, could you let us in on some of the features? /s

Seriously, how the hell do you know? For all you know, an employee could have gathered a list of good ideas from the forum and presented them to Todd. For all you know, Todd could be looking at the forum right now looking for some last touch up ideas. (although I doubt it because of the time right now). You have no clue what is going on in the studio, so don't pretend like you do. Sure, they might not have listen, but how do you know?

I'll admit, I was wrong for saying they definitely listen, but your also wrong for saying they definitely don't.

Comparing games in general is fine. That helps drive competition which drives improvements and innovation. The problem comes in when you actively bemoan those shortcomings so much that they detract from your enjoyment and other people's enjoyment, when it is otherwise enjoyable as a stand-alone game.

I started with Oblivion, then went to Morrowind. In Morrowind, I definitely felt the lack of AI, character interaction, and combat. Morrowind would be a million times better if those things were fixed. But I don't let that stop me from enjoying it and seeing it for what it is.. a good game that has room for improvement. Just like Oblivion is, and just like Skyrim will be.

I for one, will not be purchasing another game from bethesda softworks for a long time. I no longer have faith in this company to produce games for me, they cater to an audience who is full of 10 - 13 year olds who see one screenshot and call it the best game ever, who cannot read anything without getting annoyed so they make everything voiced and shallow, like oblivion and fallout. Bethesdas last 2 games were terrible yet got good reviews. Of course when you buy a new game, it has its moments. I played Oblivion probably over 1000 hours easy. Fallout 3 comes along and its Oblivion with guns! They didn't learn anything, it was the same product recycled into a different universe with slightly diff mechanics.

Now of course people will say, what about the modding community, they make the game better! Check TES Nexus, the most popular mods are naked mods when all the women have perfect bodies with enourmous briasts. There are some good mods here and there, but its hard to really fix something that was broken to begin with. Most of the major and minor gripes people had with Oblivion, I have them too, so Im not going to go into it. I am a morrowind player.

Then theres where bethesda is as a company. Look at the addons they released for Oblivion and Fallout 3. There were a few that shine, mainly Oblivions expansion, Shivering Isles. But most of it felt like it should have been included in the game from the beginning. Bethesda is basically just milking us for our money, like all the companys are. My little brother liked Fallout 3 WAY more than I did. He however, after buying operation anchorage and being disappointed, wouldnt buy another one. Oblivion got one full expansion (thank god) and Fallout 3 got a bunch of mini addons, all of which except arguably one (broken steel) were not worth the money.

This comes to my conclusion that Bethesda is a far cry from the guys they were when they made Morrowind. The guys who played daggerfall were a mature audience, and they listened to the people who bought it. Morrowind came out and it was more accessible to the public, yet still remained hardcoe and had lots of diversity, and when you first bought the game it was really easy to get LOST in the world. Oblivion came out, I never got lost, someone held my hand the whole way, and took all the satisfaction I got from doing anything in the game.

Bethesda DOES listen to the people, but if most of the people telling them what to do and what to change are whiny teens how can any of you expect something stellar? Bethesda is just a cash cow like Blizzard Activision. Making something very mainstream that the laziest teenager can pick up and play means more money for them. I hope I am wrong and bethesda makes me look like an idiot, but for all the people getting your hopes up, I wouldnt just yet.

Wow, I didn't know you were a part in making Skyrim, could you let us in on some of the features? /s

Seriously, how the hell do you know? For all you know, an employee could have gathered a list of good ideas from the forum and presented them to Todd. For all you know, Todd could be looking at the forum right now looking for some last touch up ideas. (although I doubt it because of the time right now). You have no clue what is going on in the studio, so don't pretend like you do. Sure, they might not have listen, but how do you know?

I'll admit, I was wrong for saying they definitely listen, but your also wrong for saying they definitely don't.

Not to rip into the Todd almighty (I don't even know the guy ) but judging by his interviews his mindset about game features seems to be backwards sometimes, at best. Specious logic and he seems to have a verbal tick in which he refers to "variety" as "redundancy" as if having weapon variety is a bad thing. I don't know for sure just what kind of driver behind the wheel he is, because no developers ever actually touch down on the forums so nobody can actually talk to them :sadvaultboy:

I started with Oblivion, then went to Morrowind. In Morrowind, I definitely felt the lack of AI, character interaction, and combat. Morrowind would be a million times better if those things were fixed. But I don't let that stop me from enjoying it and seeing it for what it is.. a good game that has room for improvement. Just like Oblivion is, and just like Skyrim will be.

Comparing games in general is fine. That helps drive competition which drives improvements and innovation. The problem comes in when you actively bemoan those shortcomings so much that they detract from your enjoyment and other people's enjoyment, when it is otherwise enjoyable as a stand-alone game.

I started with Oblivion, then went to Morrowind. In Morrowind, I definitely felt the lack of AI, character interaction, and combat. Morrowind would be a million times better if those things were fixed. But I don't let that stop me from enjoying it and seeing it for what it is.. a good game that has room for improvement. Just like Oblivion is, and just like Skyrim will be.

They come around at certain times. Even Todd Howard. (Though I've only personally seen PA's from him.)

Yeah, perks, dual-wielding, new spell animations/effects, better AI. I can also let you in on quite a few loss of features if you'd like, you just let me know how I can help.

How do I know? I've been on forums for almost every damn game I've ever held interest in. I'm also routinely on the Ford Mechanic's forums when they're building new models. I was also here when Oblivion was being develloped. I can safely attest to the fact Bethesda, like every business (You know, those guys who make money?) really couldn't care less how you feel, so long as you buy. They can simplify this game down to simply pressing the space bar, and the entire community could erupt in to a raucous rage, but if they sell 15,000,000 copies, they really don't care what some little fellow on an internet forum thinks.

This is coming from someone who would like to see changes. Someone who stands to inherit if they did listen to us. But they don't. To believe they do is both naive, and narcissistic.

Ever thought about them not having enough memory on the disk? Or maybe they ran out of time? Or maybe came up with the idea later on and went like "Well doesnt hurt to make a dollar out of this" I am sure anyone would do that. Every company is after our money so if your looking for one who isnt..Im not even going to bother

Interviews with Todd have from how I've understood them, revealed that BGS is not aiming for a specific audience, but focus on both sunday players and hardcoe gamers equally, which imo can be seen pretty well in Oblivion. And gaps do matter, all TES games have given us hundreds of hours of play time while the call of duty series story mode has been around 8 hours and then the multiplayer that hasn't developed since world at war, milking.

Besides, don't judge a game from screenshots that kiddos like, wait atleast 6 months until you make up your mind, we still know only what is on top if the iceblock.