Todd's not the lead Designer but he probably does have a major say in what direction they want things to go gameplay wise.

Nobody ever really argued perks were a "Naturalistic" way to enhance your abilities. But it's a way of making each level feel significant. It's definitely what made leveling in Fallout 3 and NV rewarding, as opposed to Oblivion and Morrowind where with each individual level it was just kinda pointless.

Oblivion in particular, Attributes felt very useless. If they are using Oblivion as the baseline right now, definitely removal was the way to go. I actually found attributes to be a bigger burden than asset. For one, they're hard capped at 100, except for Magicka, encumbrance and stamina(Fatigue) related calculations. Secondly, each level actually feels like an insult, because if you didn't score all 5x modifiers, you feel like you are going to be gimp now.

Morrowind on the other hand, Attributes were significant and, actually a little too easy to exploit. Super high agility made you entirely invulnerable to basic attacks, pounding a few dozen Sujammas made you, essentially Thor, god of Thunder, smiting foes with the might Hammer Mjolnir.

But it's kind of funny seeing people try to explain out the naturalistic failure of "perks" while at same time, praising attributes, when they essentially function exactly the same at best. It's semantics, nothing more.

I never realized there was some meta-game in Oblivion about getting +5 on attributes every level up. I just always sorta did whatever.

Definately won't hear me praise attributes. As you stated the perk system is essentially the same as the attribute system. Therein lies my problem with it. It is nothing really new or innovative. It is an old car with a new coat of paint. Will we wind up with the Pinto or the Camaro? I just hate that it has come what is likley the majority of these perks will be the +5% mace modifier. So let's get a little creative. Should this perk get a little visual flair to enhance it and make it worthwhile? I would think it would be a great touch-up for an old system

Aren't you getting a little ahead of yourself? Here's an example of archery perks : perk 1 allows you to zoom while drawing an arrow. Perk 2 will also slow game time while in this zoom mode to make it much easier to aim.

I doubt we'll get any perks at all that are pure numerical bonuses unless those bonuses do themselves something very special.

Well even limiting them to "Perk 1" and "Perk 2" is getting too far ahead. From all the information we know, it's not that you can only pick in a row, it seems that you will have a few to pick from at a time and not a linear choice path. Also, each perk has leveled versions as well.

Perhaps I am but I don't think I am far off the mark. 180 perks. Some of these "rank" up. We don't know how many. You are talking about even more development time making 180 unique perks than you would just rehashing the attribute system. So the "easy" path is to make definately more than a few of these "attribute replacements". It is really just giving the "appearance" of a fresh new system when it really isn't. I don't say this to crap on my favorite game developer. Just passionate for improvement and I hope I am way off the mark.

We'll have to wait and see but I think you are in for a major disappointment. Out of interest, would it change your view of the new system if it turns out a lot of the perks are simple numerical bonuses?

Chances are they aren't all simple numerical bonuses. All the perks we know are special effects for weapons. I don't see them being simple numerical bonuses not only because we haven't seen a numeric one yet but mainly because TES is trying to cut out any number crunching aspects of the game that aren't integral to the core of the game. Chances are there will be some with some numerical value but I think the majority will be effects that are significant effects that the player can see, such as the hemorrhage bonus to axes, the slow motion effect for bows and the zoom bonus for bows. It seems that the perks will all be much like those in Oblivion, which most people will agree were pretty nice.

You are completely wrong. Making 180 unique perks just takes time to find them all. Rehashing the attribute system will just get you nowhere because in the end, it's just a plain and boring set of 8 numerical values that can only provide bland numerical bonuses by their own limited numerical nature! There's NO way to make the attributes into something as good as a really diverse list of interesting perks to choose from.


No, the system is better and it's not a bad implementation that would make the fundamentals behind it worse. At that point we can even bet that modders will replace all perks by a new set that is far more interesting and just use that.

That sums up excatly what I was thinking with Perks and attributes. It's the same progressive skill system but the only difference is the bonuses you get at level up are Perks not Attributes.

Fair enough. Personally, I think the success of the system will depend heavily on having a high enough proportion of 'interesting' perks (like bow aiming etc). I hadn't considered the idea of modders creating their own perk systems, that could become quite an interesting area of modding development.

Yes, we don't really know quite how extensive and diversifying it will be. So far the only thing we know, is it makes each level up, a little more rewarding. But the end of the road could very well end up in the same place. Personally, I'm okay with that, it's actually a pretty good worst-case scenario if you think about it. Sort of like when people were screaming that Fallout 3 is "Oblivion with guns" in my mind, that made it a pretty amazing game, and being the worst thing that could be said about it.

Actually I'm thinking under this system that we will have more diverse characters. Sure some may get 100 skills in all of their skills but they won't be able to get access to some of the better perks meaning they'll be weaker then say somebody who focuses completely on Destruction or One handed, Etc.

Your definately dealing in absolutes pal. A bit worried?? :whistling:

That's definitely what I'm hoping for, and subscribe to that general course of thought.

I mean, it's really hard to think positively, the sky is the limit, but thinking negatively is much easier, because the ground is tangible.

Agreed. The sky truly is the limit.... but the budget isn't

Of course they would. If it makes the game "accessible" and brings in more cash, they'll implement it. Bethesda isn't a company above others in this respect; they're all after profits...

Yes, its archaic. Like i said before, most RPG are heading towards cool traits/perks/abilities and moving flat numbers to be behind the scenes and effected through other mechanics.

....and yes Blizzard talent trees and skill runes (Diablo3, which streamlined attributes as well but results in far more toon gameplay variations) are just some examples as they work well.

Well you might think it's archaic, but these traditional rpg traits are what makes TES my favorite rpg series. I agree with you; rpgs seem to be moving in the same direction (Mass Effect, Dragon Age, Fable), and I don't like it. I want a game that covers what these other rpgs are neglecting. But that's just me I guess.

While a profit margin is definitely the impetus of a company, it doesn't mean that every single decision they make will be to rigidly maximize profits at every opportunity. Nor does it mean that more consumers at the cost of less content or substance always equals profit.

Especially when "simplified" or not, they've still spent five years developing it.

And made a whole new engine for it.

280 perks > 8 attributes (8 attributes that weren't that great anyway)

And is this a bad thing? I'm sure if you were in Zenimax's place or Bethesda's place, making more money on a product is a good thing, and your decisions would also be the same. In this day and age, and in this economy, it's the way things work. What isn't about money, when it all boils down?

Bethesda doesn't design games to suit what YOU like, and what only YOU merely believe should be included in THEIR game. A monetary-based economy will only continue to place monetary gain first and foremost, so why is there so much complaint? Don't like it, boycott Bethesda along with every single corporation in existence and live life as a hermit. Otherwise, stop all this negativity and enjoy the game when it comes out. Or better yet, go to art school and get a degree in video game development and start designing games how you think they should be designed, and see what happens when millions of people say they hate a certain thing you've done, while another million people will praise you for it. That's life.

I can understand why some people like the new system and others don't but it amazes me how eager some people are to throw Attributes under the bus the moment Bethesda say it's okay to do so. It's not like there have been hordes of people screaming (or even suggesting) that attributes be removed, yet, in the space of a couple of days they have suddenly become an archaic game mechanic that has no place in the modern RPG.