wonder why they took out attributes? : V - Skyrim

» Wed Mar 30, 2011 4:59 am

The other side of having no class is the revised skill system. In Oblivion, you had eight attributes and 21 skills -- now Skyrim has three attributes and 18 skills. Before you accuse Howard and his team of babying the game, he points out, "We stripped the attributes to the core health, magicka, and stamina. Before you tell me, 'you took away Intelligence!' I would say, 'but why are you raising Intelligence? Probably to raise your magicka, right?' It was just a trickle-down effect. So now, instead of raising attributes to raise other attributes, you focus purely on the core three you were raising anyway." Additionally, grind-heavy skills such as Acrobatics and Athletics were the ones that were taken out (so no more spamming the jump or sprint keys).

That is because actually their skill system is pretty primitive and uncomplex , if it was a system more like AD&D then you would have lots of reasons to have intelligence and that woul daffect severall stuff , so their reasoning is based on simplification of their old system and not into implementantion and improvement of the system per se.

» Wed Mar 30, 2011 2:44 am

I said I don't want to engage in this discussion anymore, but I thought you might be interested in some plain math:

At level 51 (which is not the level cap, but is a reasonable point to define as "max level" because you don't gain any more perks after that), you chose to increase health, magicka or stamina 50 times.
Due to that, there are 1326 possible combinations how you could distribute your points. That sounds pretty solid (although this number would be 3.478.761 with just 6 attributes, and 264.385.836 with 8).

In Morrowind and Oblivion, there was only one combination: 100/100/100/100/100/100/100/100.
But be reminded, this is due to the limitation of points to spent, and not an inherent feature of cutting attribuites.

» Wed Mar 30, 2011 6:43 am

Attributes are just a limiting guide for character development. Without them, you are truly free to work on what you want, how you want.

Exactly the point,freedom without being bogged down by numbers that didn't have the effect they should have.

» Wed Mar 30, 2011 8:03 am

I was good with the idea of perks and fewer skills combining to create a more rich character development situation than many skills alone. Now attributes are gone too. Maybe perks compensate there too, but this is getting touchy. What else will perks have tocompensate for?

In Daggerfall, Morrowind, and Oblivion I was able to create my fast swordsman thief. Speed was the key - he survived by being faster than the competition. Some other people want strength based characters. Will we be able to create those sorts of characters? Or will our characters be more like console game characters where each is not easily distinguishable from the next?

Another poster pointed out that while variation might be possible as a character progresses, each character is going to be dropped into the world as utterly generic. Not sure that this is a good thing.

» Wed Mar 30, 2011 6:13 am

I was good with the idea of perks and fewer skills combining to create a more rich character development situation than many skills alone. Now attributes are gone too. Maybe perks compensate there too, but this is getting touchy. What else will perks have tocompensate for?

In Daggerfall, Morrowind, and Oblivion I was able to create my fast swordsman thief. Speed was the key - he survived by being faster than the competition. Some other people want strength based characters. Will we be able to create those sorts of characters? Or will our characters be more like console game characters where each is not easily distinguishable from the next?

Another poster pointed out that while variation might be possible as a character progresses, each character is going to be dropped into the world as utterly generic. Not sure that this is a good thing.

But under Oblivions system with Attributes you all ended up in the same place. Yes starting out you were different if you focused on Speed or Strength but now we have perks that will do the same thing and this time around the perks will really reward you for specializing a particular skill unlike Attributes that had to make you focus on skills that you would never use.

» Wed Mar 30, 2011 9:03 am

I was good with the idea of perks and fewer skills combining to create a more rich character development situation than many skills alone. Now attributes are gone too. Maybe perks compensate there too, but this is getting touchy. What else will perks have tocompensate for?

In Daggerfall, Morrowind, and Oblivion I was able to create my fast swordsman thief. Speed was the key - he survived by being faster than the competition. Some other people want strength based characters. Will we be able to create those sorts of characters? Or will our characters be more like console game characters where each is not easily distinguishable from the next?

Another poster pointed out that while variation might be possible as a character progresses, each character is going to be dropped into the world as utterly generic. Not sure that this is a good thing.

I do not know how they address the character moving speed, but for other attributes, I think we are better without them, as I have stated http://www.gamesas.com/index.php?/topic/1181321-wonder-why-they-took-out-attributes/page__view__findpost__p__17504625, and I think that the combination of removing predetermined class and attributes and let us gain level as we use any skill, is their best leveling system yet.

Now you define your character naturally as you play and use your skills, and skills are not tied to other skills by attributes and character class, so yo can use any skill without the need to think of other skills tied to that skill.

Now you do not have to think about maximizing attribute gains in level-ups and power-game your other skills to achieve that goal.

Now you play just as you like and use the skills that you like, and role-play as you like, and advance your character as you like, without the previous bounds that forced you to do things that was not in your character's class, because skills were tied to each other by attributes and predetermined classes.

Now you are free to role-play as you like!

THEIR BEST LEVELING SYSTEM YET!!!

» Tue Mar 29, 2011 11:21 pm

The explanation is a fabrication. Life, Magicka, and Stamina are not attributes. It is lame to make excuses for limiting character development.

Amen, gameplay is going down the drain. RPG too, welcome to diablo first person.
The game may still not be lame but its going to.feel lacking in the character development.

And by the way, this is a single player game, so WHYTF do they care about people jumping like retards and uping they skill just to QQ on forum they are dumb asses that sliped from a goat rear end and Bethesda shouldn t be making games for reasonable people, so next game they have to: cheese is down and lock up freedom of choice so short buss riders like themselves shouldn t be able to make fool of themselves ?

Ho wait!! Its because its much easyer to make games for mentally challenged than making a smart and coherent game....and it seels more probably.

» Wed Mar 30, 2011 1:35 am

does this put your fears to rest?

You need a "never had fears to begin with" option. :tongue:

» Tue Mar 29, 2011 10:36 pm

Amen, gameplay is going down the drain. RPG too, welcome to diablo first person.
The game may still not be lame but its going to.feel lacking in the character development.

And by the way, this is a single player game, so WHYTF do they care about people jumping like retards and uping they skill just to QQ on forum they are dumb asses that sliped from a goat rear end and Bethesda shouldn t be making games for reasonable people, so next game they have to: cheese is down and lock up freedom of choice so short buss riders like themselves shouldn t be able to make fool of themselves ?

Ho wait!! Its because its much easyer to make games for mentally challenged than making a smart and coherent game....and it seels more probably.

Not by a long shot, the new system has even more choices and will allow for a more diverse development of the character rather then having 8 attributes.

» Tue Mar 29, 2011 10:10 pm

I'm one of those people who think Oblivion was a huge step back from Morrowind's RPG game-play.

But I think Skyrim's changes are all for the good, and they have learned from their mistakes in Oblivion, and they have stated the fact several times in different interviews, sometime under cover and sometime completely open when there was no denying it.

So yeah, I think that the new system is great and addresses a lot of game-play issues, like:

Playing for the sake of increasing attributes, as compared to the play for the sake of getting better in our actions and developing our character's effectiveness and general standing compared to the world.

Previously you had to use Bows all the time to increase your agility in order to become more effective in sneak, now you only have to sneak around as much as you like, so no double tier of bounded skills to force you do things that you might not like.

Now you can make effective sneaky characters that do not use bows, but slit throats from behind, or something like that.

You can now make characters that use any combination of skills as you like and as effective as you make your character by practice.

And your character would grow and advance in levels naturally along the way, as you use your skills, and is not hampered by a predefined class, that would force you use non-class skills in order to gain maximum attribute points in the level-up sessions.

In effect you define your class in playing as you like, so if you play like a thief then you advance your thiefly skills and are in the thief class, and so on...

This is the best vanilla leveling system of the elder scrolls series yet!

This is totally wrong... and sad that people aren t able to be sensible
i have explained how perk are just a way to try to do the right thing the wrong way having poor results, there was a problem and the poorest solution ever has been adopted just because it gives the less work. oblivion was already going the worong way, sometimes i wonder if they did as bad as they did it on purpose just to have an excuse to drop the old, incomplete system, it was ust that uncomplete.
Anyway, the same tards that bit**ed agaisnt the former sistem will be the same that wll b**ch against this system anyway. That a human problem, not a system problem.

So they are letting a system down because people abused it. OMG BIOS complained and CPU farted. There s no excuse to what they are doing just because its a single playergame, not a MMO, unless TES VI will be one more MMO on a market that is oversturated with them, and slowly but constantly dropping them, if you disconsider farmers, gold sellers and ETC.

Anyway welcome to diablo single player, and i net THAT its what letting a lot of people happy.

» Tue Mar 29, 2011 11:48 pm

This is totally wrong... and sad that people aren t able to be sensible
i have explained how perk are just a way to try to do the right thing the wrong way having poor results, there was a problem and the poorest solution ever has been adopted just because it gives the less work. oblivion was already going the worong way, sometimes i wonder if they did as bad as they did it on purpose just to have an excuse to drop the old, incomplete system, it was ust that uncomplete.
Anyway, the same tards that bit**ed agaisnt the former sistem will be the same that wll b**ch against this system anyway. That a human problem, not a system problem.

So they are letting a system down because people abused it. OMG BIOS complained and CPU farted. There s no excuse to what they are doing just because its a single playergame, not a MMO, unless TES VI will be one more MMO on a market that is oversturated with them, and slowly but constantly dropping them, if you disconsider farmers, gold sellers and ETC.

Anyway welcome to diablo single player, and i net THAT its what letting a lot of people happy.

You know Flaming someone isn't the best way to win an argument.

» Wed Mar 30, 2011 11:17 am

This is totally wrong... and sad that people aren t able to be sensible
i have explained how perk are just a way to try to do the right thing the wrong way having poor results, there was a problem and the poorest solution ever has been adopted just because it gives the less work.

Perks do something pure attribute or skill systems that improve as you use them cannot ever do cleanly. They add variety, they add new options for you.

What would you rather get at level up? +5 in 3 attributes OR unlocking a brand new combat move with a sword? Or a metamagic feat allowing your buffs to last longer? Or learn how to make a perfectly silent kill on unaware humanoid targets so that his friends won't notice he's missing?

» Tue Mar 29, 2011 10:47 pm

You know Flaming someone isn't the best way to win an argument.

While I agree, i thinks its about time medicine was dealt, that last few days since the attributes news came (which wasn't news we new this since January it was already hinted at in the GI presentation) those for the new "system" have been treating those who are saying Attributes/Skills/Perks are better than just Perks like their idiots, like there is no basis to argue against the new system and say Hold on, this sounds off. but woe is we who are giving reasonings for the need for all 3 aspects to remain present, for we are stagnant whiners who are against change :ermm:

this isnt about Winning an argument, you don't "win arguments on the internet, people still have their opinions and I've been seeing people getting flamed for that, even when their Opinions have merit.

» Wed Mar 30, 2011 3:26 am

I'm not entirely sure what the problem is. We're still doing the same things and everything is still going on in the background. It's just now being done in a less cluttered and better looking way.

» Wed Mar 30, 2011 8:03 am

When Todd says that swinging my weapon enhances my endurance, strenght and stamina in the background on the fly I will hold him to that.

What Todd says my intelligence increases on the fly or my willpower because of trials and tribulations without picking Perks, I will hold him to that.

But until he or a another Beth employee states this, do not say they are in the background doing...*stuff*

FO3/NV had the same bit, you never ran faster than normal, you did not jump higher or get better as a character, the only thing that mattered was your Health skills and perks

all this is turning out to be is Health magica Stamina and perks, and quite frank I do not see the improvement. and those of you going about choices and how you can play the way you want act as if Attributes were limiting or some such and that all of a sudden 280 perks are dynamic and game changing? check FO3/NV's perklist and tell me how many +5 to so and so do you see and ask yourself if simply Taking Oblivions automatic perks that made sense (you improve in skill you do new things) is suddenly new and innovative.

and think hard, because I'd love to know why My Mace which normally do damage regardless of light armor, and sometimes with great strenght heavy armor, now needs a Perk to apply that inherent attribute of MACES....

» Wed Mar 30, 2011 3:47 am

While I agree, i thinks its about time medicine was dealt, that last few days since the attributes news came (which wasn't news we new this since January it was already hinted at in the GI presentation) those for the new "system" have been treating those who are saying Attributes/Skills/Perks are better than just Perks like their idiots, like there is no basis to argue against the new system and say Hold on, this sounds off. but woe is we who are giving reasonings for the need for all 3 aspects to remain present, for we are stagnant whiners who are against change :ermm:

this isnt about Winning an argument, you don't "win arguments on the internet, people still have their opinions and I've been seeing people getting flamed for that, even when their Opinions have merit.

I agree with you and the fact of the matter is we still have another 6+ months yet until the game comes out. A lot of this is overreaction but there is some legitimite beef with Attributes being taken out. I understand that completely, kinda the same thinking with Spears/Leviation being taken out. I'm not going to change my mind about Attributes as I think that Perks are better but I do agree that we can easily do this without saying Perks are here to stay deal with it or go play Morrowind.

» Wed Mar 30, 2011 6:47 am

I agree with you and the fact of the matter is we still have another 6+ months yet until the game comes out. A lot of this is overreaction but there is some legitimite beef with Attributes being taken out. I understand that completely, kinda the same thinking with Spears/Leviation being taken out. I'm not going to change my mind about Attributes as I think that Perks are better but I do agree that we can easily do this without saying Perks are here to stay deal with it or go play Morrowind.

Agreed, I'm not flaming mad and yeah I get that I haven't played the game I'm on beth forums, that gives me some sense of legitimacy no? in that Im not a mental [censored] or immature snot nosed brat, I understand its a new system, I understand that is completely up to bethesda I also understand they have 5 years to come up with this so I'm in no place to say they svck or are horrible, but I am in all well and rights to Question what the heck are they thinking. I'm more concerned with people treating others like crap here all over again, oblivion wasn't as bad as this but this is seeping to near pre morrowind levels....

» Wed Mar 30, 2011 8:11 am

This is totally wrong... and sad that people aren t able to be sensible
i have explained how perk are just a way to try to do the right thing the wrong way having poor results, there was a problem and the poorest solution ever has been adopted just because it gives the less work. oblivion was already going the worong way, sometimes i wonder if they did as bad as they did it on purpose just to have an excuse to drop the old, incomplete system, it was ust that uncomplete.
Anyway, the same tards that bit**ed agaisnt the former sistem will be the same that wll b**ch against this system anyway. That a human problem, not a system problem.

So they are letting a system down because people abused it. OMG BIOS complained and CPU farted. There s no excuse to what they are doing just because its a single playergame, not a MMO, unless TES VI will be one more MMO on a market that is oversturated with them, and slowly but constantly dropping them, if you disconsider farmers, gold sellers and ETC.

Anyway welcome to diablo single player, and i net THAT its what letting a lot of people happy.

You do know they've spent around 5 years on the game right? It's not as if it was a rushed decision. They have obviously found ( what they think ) is a better way. They have reworked alot of things 1: because it was needed 2: because we as fans ask for changes and improvement,then when they do,people jump all over them.....Some people are never happy.

It looks like the attributes have been weighed,been measured,and been found wanting.

» Wed Mar 30, 2011 7:28 am

Here is a question... Why not fix the attribute system by giving stats a larger role instead of taking the lazy way out and removing it (All large "rpg" devs seem to be taking this to a new leve). I mean Why not have skills, perks, attributes?

It's lazier to completely rework a system from the ground up than it is to make Intelligence give 3 magicka instead of 2?

I said I don't want to engage in this discussion anymore, but I thought you might be interested in some plain math:

At level 51 (which is not the level cap, but is a reasonable point to define as "max level" because you don't gain any more perks after that), you chose to increase health, magicka or stamina 50 times.
Due to that, there are 1326 possible combinations how you could distribute your points. That sounds pretty solid (although this number would be 3.478.761 with just 6 attributes, and 264.385.836 with 8).

So what happens when you add perks? There are 280 of those you can choose from.

i have explained how perk are just a way to try to do the right thing the wrong way having poor results, there was a problem and the poorest solution ever has been adopted just because it gives the less work.

Can you quote yourself? I must have missed your solution.

» Tue Mar 29, 2011 7:46 pm

I agree with you and the fact of the matter is we still have another 6+ months yet until the game comes out. A lot of this is overreaction but there is some legitimite beef with Attributes being taken out. I understand that completely, kinda the same thinking with Spears/Leviation being taken out. I'm not going to change my mind about Attributes as I think that Perks are better but I do agree that we can easily do this without saying Perks are here to stay deal with it or go play Morrowind.

It's not that perks are better or worse than attributes, it's that Beth is creating the situation where perks replace attributes. Why can't we have both? When they first revealed perks a few months ago, I just assumed it was an improvement on Oblivion's perk system and that the rest of the game would remain the same. But now they're so enamored with their new perk trees that they've decided to scrap attributes? Why?...

In the words of Will Farrel, "WHAT THE [censored] HAPPENED?!"

Let me also say that if they just added in speed and luck to the current 3 attributes (and enough points to spend on them), then I would be 90% satisfied.

» Wed Mar 30, 2011 5:56 am

So what happens when you add perks? There are 280 of those you can choose from.

Sadly we can't say anything about possible perk-combinations yet, because most of them will have prerequisites within their tree.

Sufficive to say it's a lot. A rough approximation of mine: 1.018.300.896 combinations.

» Tue Mar 29, 2011 7:44 pm

I never had any fears to begin with. Todd is a smart Breton and I trust him

» Tue Mar 29, 2011 10:01 pm

#1- These are the same game devs that gave us Morrowind and Oblivion. While I was initially outraged that Axe, Spear, and short blade were removed as skills... that mark/recall/amsilvi intervention/divine intervention/snowfall/lock/levitate/jump were removed as spells, and that Oblivion had far fewer quests... I understand that Oblivion was just where they wanted to take the saga... and i do see how the combat was improved. I came to appreciate oblivion as it's own game... not as something that was missing all of those things.

#2- We enjoyed those games because of their vision.

#3- They are professional game devs, and they've been working on this project and testing it in-house for years and years.

#4- It's their call, and it's their franchise. In the end, what they say, goes.

#5- With each game, they want to create a new engine, and a new game... not live up to old dreamy nostalgia dreams of fans from Morrowind and Oblivion... which by now are so tainted by nostalgia that they may be impossible to live up to.

#6- Grinding for +5's every level killed the RP experience for many of us.

Many of us hope that an attribute system can be fixed so grinding is no longer necessary... because we enjoy being able to customize our characters. However... the Bethesda team has concluded that this kind of character creation just causes players to get frustrated and make new characters.

I am let down... because I love to create my own characters, but I see their point. A lot of new players are constantly recreating characters after figuring out they made a [censored] one...

still... I ask myself, don't perks have the same problem? Aren't people going to be dissatisfied with perks, and remake chars? In that case... why not keep attributes, but kill the need for +5 grinding? In the end... the inherent evil of screwing up and picking wrong is just the same as the evil of perks...

» Wed Mar 30, 2011 3:54 am

Sadly we can't say anything about possible perk-combinations yet, because most of them will have prerequisites within their tree.

Sufficive to say it's a lot. A rough approximation of mine: 1.018.300.896 combinations.

Now that's replay value :drool:

» Tue Mar 29, 2011 8:13 pm

Now that's replay value :drool:

Not really. These numbers sound very impressive, but anything can be made to sound impressive.

For example, Oblivion had 21 skills, each with a value from 5 to 100. Therefore at any given time there are 96^21 = 4.24x10^41 possible combinations of skills you can have. That's 424,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000

See the problem? Hint: the math is right.