The other side of having no class is the revised skill system. In Oblivion, you had eight attributes and 21 skills -- now Skyrim has three attributes and 18 skills. Before you accuse Howard and his team of babying the game, he points out, "We stripped the attributes to the core health, magicka, and stamina. Before you tell me, 'you took away Intelligence!' I would say, 'but why are you raising Intelligence? Probably to raise your magicka, right?' It was just a trickle-down effect. So now, instead of raising attributes to raise other attributes, you focus purely on the core three you were raising anyway." Additionally, grind-heavy skills such as Acrobatics and Athletics were the ones that were taken out (so no more spamming the jump or sprint keys).

This is bound for lock. Trust me Akaryu, it's all been said before.

so someone already posted todds explanation?

Several dozens already have posted Todd's explanation, in the course of yesterday's day-long 'No Attributes' panic attack.

The explanation is a fabrication. Life, Magicka, and Stamina are not attributes.

No? Then what would you term them?

The explanation completely ignores speed, agility, personality, and luck. Yep.

They weren't before. But essentially, they are now.

We've all read Todds explanations, and they hold as much water as "its too spreadsheety" every statement he made was to deflate any potential uproar, Beth and company knows people are going to be like wtf is wrong with you, and they know it. if thats their descision say so, but don't fill it with crap and shoot down previous games like they were unfixable messes. there is fixing the hole in your roof, and theres tearing the whole thing down for a smaller roof because the previous was too "excel spreadsheety" and the only reason why it was so borked was because of the level scaling we have mods now for Oblivion that make Attributes grow based on whatever your doing the most, so you dont even have to spread out points. so any other excuse is PR talk.


They've been working on this since 06, Dragons took what two years? and DUAL WIELDING is a fairly recent addition to developement it wasnt even in the initial product, but your telling me they wont come up with something better than health magic and stamina and leaving PERKS that are rewards to lift the rest of the weight? mmk, what do I know, I don't develope games.

Much more descriptive.

The explanation is a fabrication. Life, Magicka, and Stamina are not attributes. It is lame to make excuses for limiting character development.

well we shall see how this effects character development on november 11th i personally believe him

Let's make the statement that has to be made:

None of us, whether we are open or closed to the removal of the 8 original attributes, has seen this new system in work, or has any idea what else the system can compensate for or not compensate for outside of a few-sentence interview blurb.

Attributes are just a limiting guide for character development. Without them, you are truly free to work on what you want, how you want.

and none of us lack the sense to extrapolate from the information we've been given, there is even greater reason to not take anything portrayed thus far greater than a grain of salt because all Todd and company have used to abate potential uproar are debasing past games and features that were apparently clear cut and pivotal for their time ah but now all of a sudden they svck and where poor design descisions. mmk

When Oblivion was approaching, I remember not have a thread of doubt for what they were doing..... never again. until the game proves otherwise, I don't see why our opinions shouldn't flow.




ah really how so? and don't give me the RP business because others have stated Attributes and Birthsigns didnt matter in the long run, and those supported RP values and my reply was.


Then make them matter? oh but woe is the thought on improving and changing things a bit more instead of "streamlining" them and someone even told me, then it would be an expansion pack, and I :lmao: inside wondering if they forgot the previous titles all had the same system.

So then what are modders supposed to use in their scripts? Attributes were almost always present in scripts in mods, especially ones that added to gameplay not just quests.

I'm glad Attributes are gone now I can focus on playing the game instead of worrying about +5's and with a Perk System we will get more diverse characters meaning more choices when Leveling. Attributes not so much as you end up at the same place at Level 50 where as in Skyrim your character will be much different from someone else's character.

yes but i always wonder abuot strength, and hitting harder, and increasing the damage of spells, ofc i'll assume thats in perks but i still think it should be an attribute :/ otherwise i'm perfectly fine with all this. or maybe its just a part of health?

Go check the majority of NV's and FO3's perks and honestly say you wont have to worry about +5's ever again :thumbsup: all 280 will be unique and game changing? lol k

Just because those features have been pivotal and instrumental in past games doesn't make them immune to efficiency and redesign. They're not saying they were poor design decisions for the time, they're saying that it would be a shame to waste the opportunity to see where they can take them from here. Hence the redesigning. And regarding the redesigning...

If the functionality of the attributes is on record as being sufficiently mirrored, such as intelligence to magicka, then it's taken care of.
If the functionality is in question and not on record, then seeing as how it took this forum a day to construct a decent list of how the missing attributes could be shored up, it's pretty likely Bethesda has managed to find ways in 5 years.

Folding old things more concisely into new things is only a problem when the new is a hollow shell of the old. And I don't see sufficient evidence or reasoning to show how this current folding is going to be that hollow shell. Lots of pointing back to the time of Oblivion where dev-quotes ran rampant and wild, but no reasoning in the now.



I never had a doubt with Oblivion either, and it's something I've learned from. But let's look at some things here. Oblivion's pre-release time had developers posting info on these forums all the time, some containing statements that were hard to justify even pre-release when nobody could even see the game. But if you look at the trends that have come about as a result of Oblivion, you'll find that Beth is a lot more conscious about their info, when and how they release it, and its veracity when the game comes out. For instance, to my knowledge, FO3 has no such controversies that Oblivion had due to its pre-release info. Skyrim's info is given out only rareley and in an extremely controlled manner. Both of these things would indicate that Bethesda has learned from Oblivion's pre-release, and both trend towards more accurate and more reliable information and planning.

It'll be great the first time but this is yet another feature that will make tertiary playthrough a drudge-fest in the initial levels. Rather than being able to start out as exactly what you want to play, you'll need to carefully and meticulously shape yourself from a faceless blob into a semi-functioning spellcaster, swordsman, etc. First time I'll like it, second or third time I'll need a mod.

That doesn't make any sense. You are essentially saying the exact opposite of what is true. Attributes are behind the scenes variables that impact other things. While not having them can limit character development they being present have no means to limit development.


Without them you are forced to the pre-defined scope of a tech tree.

I don't get what the big deal is. It seems to me that the attributes are all there, just stuffed into the current three. That's how his explanation sounded to me. So like when you level up magic, you are also leveling intelligence. When you level up stamina, you're leveling up acrobatics and athletics (as well as any other attribute stuffed into each of the three you level up). That's how it sounds to me anyway.

That is right... isn't it?

My friend I would be elated personally if they actually redesigned everything.

Ooh how I wish I could find the article were todd says those were poor design descisions, it even had levelscaling bashing in there as well, which was touted as so revolutionary and I was there, among the many who were like.....so I won't realize im getting stronger? but then i thought oh well it can't be that bad.

they didnt they just "from the information we have been provided" chopped away many things and left the bear bones, lol are you really using their terminology? folding? sigh :/ look Im not unreasonable, just don't plaster bare bones with some skin, give it a spit shine and call it new, perks have always been around, its just given tags and thrown in your face :/

It's better then the previous system. The Attributes rewarded you for using skills that you would never use. Why should my Battle Mage have to raise Hand To Hand just to get a +5 in Strength. I'd rather just focus on Blade and with Skyrim's new system I can and no longer have to worry about Hand To Hand or any other minor skill. I can focus on the skills that I want to use without there being a penalty to Attributes I just get more access to better perks.