sorry, but his list wins over yours. Sprays, glyphs, pbaoe, DW'ing, variation, good telekenesis, dynamic casting, combining >>> lock and slowfall....

also "hover" was talked about in another magazine.

This is a classic logical error. The statement here says that skills have perks attached. Nowhere does it say that there aren't perks without skills. Nowhere does it say that there's not other way at all to change your character other than skill perks.

You are reading that into his statement.

Its not better if I cannot make my own spells, with its own duration, effects and potency.
Its pretty useless to only have one fire spell and have it level up with me, or worse, having to 'charge' it a la fable.

Muffins are not pancakes.

I have given plenty examples, so have others and not only in this thread.
So if you still insist that pancakes are muffins then you are being deliberately obtuse for the sake of being bullheaded.
And that means you have no real interest in another point of view, only your own.
And that means that I am done here, as I am not prone to engage in efforts of futility.

.........................READ THE STATEMENT.... Fallout Had Perks for skills attributes and general, he said not like Fallout, the Perks are for skills, and in -every- interview he associates perks for Skills, never did he say there are Perks for H/M/S, if you've seen it by all means Link us, but that shios is clear as Day........

What does that have to do with spellcrafting.

I don't really want to ruin the main debate but, there are things that are removed for a reason.

Levation and jump due to design problems, mark and recall due to fast travel (also I've heard some changes in the lore about this, like making teleportation less common in the world...), lock and sanctuary because of no real usage. No idea about slowfall, probably the same as levitation and jump...

Is it simplifying? Maybe, but complexity does not instantly make the game better, nor removing it would make it worse.

So you think it's better to have a whole "book" full of spells just so that each one can be slightly more powerful than the next without having any dynamic, in game way to do that?

If that's your opinion, fine. But just because you like it doesn't mean it's better. Even still, like I said, it has changed, not been removed.


Also:
Levitation - Taken out because it had to be, the nature of cities changed so levitation can't work any more. The whole world space has been redesigned in a way that makes levitation very exploitable.
Is it possible they could have changed the effect to make it work? Sure. But they removed it. I'm not saying that this is good. Levitation is a perfect example of what I'm not talking about here.


jump, slowfall, mark/recall, lock, sanctuary..
All spells, removed for one reason or another. I don't really see the point of listing things that have been removed when I'm talking about things that have not.

Yeah making teleportation less common is a nonsense by someone who failed to provide where he got that from when questioned about it, i.e. he made it up.
Fast travel is a poor replacement for mark/recall as I can hardly fast travel to a place of my own devising, wich with mark I could, and I can hardly recall straight to my stash of loot. In Oblivion its 1) exit cave 2) fast travel. 3) enter city 4) enter house.
Instead of 1) recall.

No jump and levitation = poor level design, not better. It creates false size due to insurmountable obstacles.
It depreciates from an open world because it forces a pre-set path.

... While at the same time making it so that you can't float through an entire dungeon or across a continent untouched and unchallenged.

But again, we all digress here because levitation is something that was never replaced or changed, simply removed. It's exactly what I'm not referring to.

Never did I say a cluttered book is better, do not muddle the issue by putting words in my mouth.
Many a time I have said that Oblivion should never be taken as an example as in many ways its the worst game of the series.
Inability to delete spells indeed.

For levitation, see my previous post.

The ability to circumvent obstacles and enemies is a good thing, not a bad.
There is no such thing as 'avoiding painstakingly created content' I laugh with scorn at that.

Spoken like someone who has no understanding of level design.

The world has to be built to take advantage of things like Jumping and Levitation.

Wich is why Morrowind had an amazing and truly 3d world whereas Oblivion usually felt like being stuck on a 2d surface.
For instance the dungeons were very 2d and reminded me of puzzle dungeons of 80's games, only with better graphics.

Yeah I agree with OP, HOWEVER >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Magic.Weapon.Particle.Effects.<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

Should be added

I sense that you are fighting with me when we aren't very far apart here, Merari. I don't think there's anything wrong with what you are saying. I just think there's more to it:


Inability to delete is just a small problem. The problem was that you could cheesily "create a spell" at an altar somewhere but couldn't do it on the fly anywhere else in the world. There was no way to increase the power of your spell while in a fight without jumping to the menu and "switching" your spell. It's so artificial and nonsensical that it's outrageous.
You seem to prefer that system to a more fluid, dynamic system. That's fine, but I disagree.




Perhaps we should just mail you a sticker that says "you win" so that you don't even have to play the game at all. Jokes aside, I don't agree with the idea that the game must allow you to get around obstacles. The whole point of having the game is so that you try to find your way through them. Having a feature in the game that allows you to simply bypass things is pretty pointless. I've never seen a Mario game, or any other really, that just lets you "skip" a level that you don't feel like playing. Why should TES? The developers decided not to, and that's good enough for me.

Granted, I still don't like that levitation was removed instead of changed. You're preaching to the choir on that. I'm not arguing it. I would rather they had redesigned it and kept it in. All I'm saying is that most of the features that people think are gone, are not.

And again you are putting words in mouth and overexaggerating into the ridiculous.
Never did I say that I wanted a win button.

There is a mechanism to allow one to bypass obstacles. Its called jump and levitation.
In a sandbox game there is no such thing as skipping a level. This is not halo.
Anything that places insurmountable objects depreciates from an open world.
Any time I cannot play the game I want to but have to follow a path blocked by invisble walls set by some developer means that the world becomes a little less free and a little more action/ adventure.

Perfect example of poor level design: Oblivion gates.
Argh argh fifty times in one playthrough the same stupid long windy path.
In the end I was just prone to keeping the jumping jack boots, whataretheycalled, so I could bypass them.

That's opinion. (An opinion I happen to agree with)

But Jumping + Levitation does not make level design better. If they exist, but aren't actually used, then they add nothing, except extra programming and testing for clipping issues. Like I said, you have no idea what you're talking about, and go get some experience before you parade nonsense as fact.

Morrowind had it's world built for Jumping and Levitation, hell, at an exclusion to people who didn't want to use them. You know how many friends I had to help find Divayth Fyr? Much as I loved the level design in Morrowind, it was painfully unintuitive, especially at the original graphical level where shadows and contrast don't look natural, so, for example, the Fighter's Guild quest to hunt that one dude North of the Grazelands. His cave leads into Mara's Tomb (Epic vampire with super awesome Reflect/Acrobatics/Resist Normal weapons ring). It's so incredibly hard to even see the ledge you're supposed to levitate up to, much less know you're supposed to read the note and grab the potions.

Levitation and Jumping allows more variety in level design, it doesn't inherently make it better.

Have nothing on spell creation.

They are right over there with crossbows (I don't like bows) and spears (Blades and clubs are boring). I don't care about tossing around stuff, I care about things I specifically liked in the first place (Pancakes) being removed because Todd likes muffins more.

Jumping high has been confirmed. Hooray!

"Perfection is achieved not when there is nothing left to add, but when there is nothing left to take away."

That quote was used a lot on the forums of Civ 5 before it was released, i personally have faith that Skyrim will be a great game but i'm not a big fan of that particular saying, i have my own quote to match that one:

"pruneth not the tree of complexity, lest ye end up with a pylon in the end" not great i know,

or maybe even "you can't glue sawdust back on to overly shaved toboggan" that one needs a lot of work :laugh:

Right, no, I concede those. I'm not fighting you on the spears and levitation and crossbows.

I'm talking about the features I pointed out in the OP. There are no missing pancakes in there, none that we know of yet.

Then I misinterpreted your post and apologize.

Yeah...

While I don't really care if spellcraft has been removed, it's kind of odd seeing people trying to justify it out. The flexibility of the system is too much for anything but spellcrafting to compensate for. I definitely like that they prioritized how magic "Feels" in combat, but it still doesn't mean a lack of spellcrafting isn't a great loss overall.

If I had to describe how I feel... I loved making the "Spells" but I hated using them, because the magic in Morrowind/Oblivion was so... boring. A little better in Oblivion. But then again, combat overall was fairly boring in Morrowind. Just having to "Ready Magic" in Morrowind really killed it.

It's ok, I still love you.

Just to clarify for everyone:

What I am NOT saying:
"Nothing has been removed from TES ever."

What I am also NOT saying:
"Nothing from Oblivion will be gone in Skyrim."

What I AM saying:
"Some of the things people think are gone are actually still in, just renamed. For a list, see OP."

Funny, considering how The world of Vvanderfell look like some sort of weird puzzle, while Cyrodill actually has a natural form...

As for the dungeons... Try some of the Ayleid ruins...

People always want to turn things into partisan type issues, like the new system and complex spell creation are mutually exclusive. Spell creation would be that much better with the new system.