"Perfection is achieved not when there is nothing left to add, but when there is nothing left to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antoine_de_Saint-Exup%C3%A9ry"

I tend to try and keep this in mind, at least until the game comes out and we can see for ourselves:

1. Just because certain skills are removed, that does not mean that the function of those skills is gone. Mysticism, running speed, and athleticism are all featured in the game, they are just not under the same labels.

2. While attributes themselves have been "removed," they are not actually gone. The functions that they served will likely be entirely preserved in Skyrim, simply not called "attributes."

3. While spellmaking may be gone, the most desirable effects of spellmaking will remain (such as ever-increasing spell strength and changing targets or effect types), while the undesirable effects do not.

4. While classes themselves may have been taken out, there's nothing that classes ever did that you can't still do in Skyrim. If you want to give your character some skills and experience at the start of the game to represent his/her past, you can still do that by boosting some skills or "attributes."


So just try to keep in mind that each of these things was never more than a fiction, an illusion designed to represent something else. Now that "something else" has been added to the game directly, so that we don't have the clunky mechanics and spreadsheet numbers that build our characters, we simply have character.

There isn't anything lost by removing these things, the function that they were intended to perform is still there, but better and harder to see. This, friends, is superior.

You have good points, but no matter how clearly you represent them, you will always have people that disagree with you.

'Tis a fact of life, and you'll usually get a [censored] storm when you present an opinion on a controversial subject. I hope you're prepared

As for my input, yes, I agree with you. I'm seeing a bunch of doom-sayers these days on the forums complaining how over-simplified Skyrim *may* be. Yes, it's their opinion, but how about we play the game first before we believe our opinions are fact?

We will no longer have the ability to create a unique character build at the beginning of the game, with inherent strengths and weaknesses. That's a loss to me.

Ok, and your less-is-more argument fails, because while things like Attributes, Class, and Birthsigns are being removed, the amount of weapons is being increased.

Where the heck are you getting this idea? There's nothing we've seen so far to support that you can't make a unique character with strengths and weaknesses. No less than you ever could, anyway. If you want someone lousy with magic and good with a sword, add some sword skill and a sword perk to your char and leave the magic stats alone. That's all that's ever been done in TES, and it's probably easier now that you can just set it up directly instead of going round-a-bout through some attributes that we were never quite clear what they did anyway. (Until you've played the game thrice anyway)


Less is much better if you can accomplish the same goal with less. You can't have more weapons without adding something more. My argument is not simply "less is more." The argument is that "less is more if you don't sacrifice function."

I'm sorry you didn't understand that.

I agree entirely, OP.

But with more opportunity to create a more unique one as you progress through the game.

Sounds like a win to me.

Personal preference.

And not really. There aren't any more weapons than in Oblivion, just the different weapons gets the recognitions that they deserve. I mean there always were maces, axes, long and shortswords, and two-handed versions of all of them.

While spears and crossbows themselves have been "removed," they are not actually gone. The functions that they served will likely be entirely preserved.

Eeeeeyup.

Less is not more, especially in an ES. Where Beth s capable of quality and quantity. losing things without them getting replaced just becasue this person or that person never used it is pointless.

While spears and crossbows themselves have been "removed," they are not actually gone. The functions that they served will likely be entirely preserved.

Eeeeeyup.

Stuff is gone. Maybe I liked specifically that certain little redundant aspect. Maybe I liked this small superflous thing. Which is now gone, replaced, whatever. I don't like that. And don't try to justify that.

I wrote; "in the beginning of the game" . . . not after 10 level ups. You don't get perks at the beginning of the game. The attributes were clear to me and so were the Classes and the Birthsigns.


I'm sorry that you are not willing to acknowledge that we have indeed lost something . . . at least at the beginning of the game. The initial character build has been sacrificed, so that players won't be able to create "bad" character builds, and have to restart the game. [Todd's reason, not mine.]

This is exactly what I'm talking about. Why are you assuming that there is no way to build a character at the beginning, just because the old way of doing it is out? Nobody has said that we can't start with initial perks. Nobody has said that we can't set some skills higher than others right from the start.

This is bad thinking.



Fair. My argument was only about things that have been replaced. So far as I can tell, spears and crossbows have not. There's not a lot there that I can explain.
What I'm trying to get at with this thread is that some people are assuming things have been removed that actually have not.

Levitation, Spears, Crossbows, Climbing - I can't speak to those.




Less is always more if you don't lose anything. I'm not saying that some things that get taken out aren't a sacrifice, some are. The things I listed in this thread, however, are not. Using three steps to accomplish 1 task is bloat. It makes the game slower and leaves less room for other processes. When you can narrow it down to 1 step, 1 task, you can get more in and use less resources.
This is always better.

I'm not saying that fewer features is better. I'm saying that less bloat to accomplish the same functions is better for everyone because it's cheaper, faster, and leaves more room for more advanced options.

Oh yeah, that's truly horrible... :rolleyes:

And it's not like you can't screw up your character during the game...

As of today pancakes are completely removed from the world. But muffins are technically the same, so the functions that pancakes served will be entirely preserved.

Alot of things people are crying about weren't even removed.

-They did not really remove attribute effects - Todd and Pete said they were just re-organized into seperate systems for more tangible gamepla effects. Zoom slow motion >>> +2 bow damage(something the skill should have just done)

-Athletics - morphed into Sprint and Stamina. Possibly also perks that effect this.

-Mysticism - not really removed. merged spells into other schools. More crying over names and labels rather than looking at gameplay improvements/additions.

Except they're not. You are totally twisting my argument. My argument is that we are not losing these features, they are just being re-named.

My argument is more similar to this:

If you can cut butter with a knife in 1 step, you don't need to cut it with a laser in 45,000 steps.

The irony is, there's still the ability to create unique (More unique actually) Character builds at the beginning of the game. The only real difference is the game lets you experiment before the decision matters. Removing classes and the whole "Skill list" thing, is probably the smartest thing Bethesda has done, from a design perspective.


As for "Less is more", that is the case a lot of the time. Personally, nobody but BGS has had time on the game, to know if Birthsigns and Attributes were a redundancy worthy of removal. Classes definitely were just in the theory alone. Birthsign is a little different, since each character's "Character" and "Class" is technically their "Birthsign" now, at least that's the feel they're going for. Trading Flavor for Flavor isn't exactly a net gain though.


I'm not entirely sure what you mean by Amount of Weapons, weapon types? Or the actual quantity within? Let's assume Quantity for a moment. While it's true, there's going to be some redundancy for people lucky enough to find an Ebony WarAxe earlier than "Intended", it depends on a lot of other factors. The only thing I can explain, that you probably won't get anyway, is there are two forms of character growth in most RPGs. Vertical (Physical Strength) and Horizontal (Equipment). Vertical is always linear, building upon itself, but Horizontal is anything but, at least in a well-designed RPG. (Oblivion had perfect Vertical and horizontal). You have to intend for linear growth, but not lock the player there.(Morrowind). So while some could argue anything but "Iron" and "Daedric" is "Superfluous" or "Redundant", they just don't understand the concept of Horizontal character progression.

Also, I'm sure one of the funnest things to do as an artist, is create all kinds of cool armor and apparel. No harm, no foul.

Exactly.
All that stuff about removed things still being there is a load of hogwash.

How so?

From the long interview (19:15): Todd stated, as to the reason why Classes were removed: "People would play and the general pattern would be, they played for like three hours and then, ‘oh, I picked the wrong skills, I’m going to start over.’ "

Again, I'm only basing this on what we know about the game so far, so this is not "bad thinking" . . . it is based on what Todd actually said.

How much did we lose from Dagger to Morrow, then from Morrow to OB? Why would this stop? Im sure there will be things gone that are not going to be replaced. People keep talking about all these steps and redundancy, yet have never given one example. Lets use SC as an example, if its truly gone, we're losing somthing without it getting properly replaced.

For the reasons people stated in this thread.
Muffins are not pancakes.

For instance spell making. There is no way on heaven or earth that the removal of spellmaking is not simplifying the game.
Because of spears and crossbows.
Because of being able to wear a shirt under my armour plate.
Because of birthsigns.

Nothing replaces any of that.

Dynamic spellcasting, spellcombos, two handed spells, more varied spell list...

Levitation, jump, slowfall, mark/recall, lock, sanctuary..

Why perks don't serve anything else but skills

Todd Howard Skyrim interview Podcast:Within each of these skills, there are perks. They’re perks, but they’re not like Fallout, in that each skill has its own perk tree.Take one handed for instance. You have a one handed skill, and then you can perk that. There’s a skill tree underneath one handed. And within that there are separate perk areas for maces, and then axes, and then swords. So as opposed to having say an axe skill, that is a part of the perk tree within one handed. It gives us a better balance. You can say “Well I like one handed stuff,” and then you can start specializing as you raise that skill.”



http://nerdtrek.com/skyrim-details/



so no no Blackwidow, Cannabalism or general perks PERKS ARE FOR SKILLS


Why Everyone will be the same at the beginning of the game




Spellcrafting isn't "gone"...as far as past interviews have gone

Having spell X under Mysticism and having the same spell X moved to Alteration ... you lose nothing. Muffins are muffins.

Raising your health by increasing endurance or raising your health by increasing health... muffins are muffins.

Changing a spell from Touch to Target by making a new one or by changing the way you cast it... not only did we not lose anything, but it's easier. This is better.

Determining your carry capacity by raising a strength variable or by having some other mechanic control it... what have we lost?

I have hard examples of plenty of muffins. Where are all your missing pancakes?