To combine your thoughts with that of Adventurous Putty, perhaps reboot? If the memory (divinity) is all used up (nothing but mortals left), perhaps that is dusk (which is dawn). Reboot the system (eat the world) to start over with a clean memory (to return to the dawn). Just a thought.

Kinda' goes along with an old theory I had, but never could put into proper words, about how the whole thing is nothing more than a metaphor for the creation of a video game. I've always been far too embarassed by it to say anything about it, but this seems like the place. Arena/Mundus is the game and a dragon break is when the game (or, rather, game engine) hangs up and must be fixed. A bug in the system (a hiccup in time). It's not an awfully original theory, mind you. People have tip-toed around it forever when talking about CHIM. It kinda' makes sense in that light, though. I AM ARE ALL WE... The digital characters are extensions of the creative minds which programmed the game and are being controlled by either the AI (oblivious to their true nature) or the player (CHIM-tastic). After all, many of the devs over the years have had nicknames of the Aedra/Daedra. I dunno. It's too early to think straight. I'm gonna go get some coffee and come back.

Yes, though I kinda extend that metaphor to include the world rather then just the game being inside my head.

Dragon Breaks happen when we both start mucking about with it at the same time.

I get the sense that something is missing in this kalpa-frenzy... That is, I can not get it to fit with the first Aldudagga-fight.

The first Aldudagga basically says that the end of the current cycle can only be reached (or time going back to being cyclical) under one of three premises.
1: Dagon is gonna come back, bigger and badder than ever and actually succeed in his goals. Unlikely, as he gets his behind handed to him far more that what should be expected of a god of destruction. Kind of sad, really.
2: Dagon has already succeeded, we just don't know it yet. Also unlikely in my opinion.
3: The first Aldudagga is wrong.

If neither of these three is fulfilled, I just don't see the end coming, yet. Ah well, I suppose I have time until the fifth era at least to figure it out.

Three things...

1. MK said the fragment he posted on this thread wasn't really lore, but if it was what would we think about it? He nver even implied that it would ever be used for anything more than forum conversation fodder.
2. Aldudagga is also pseudo-lore.
3. Assuming one and two are proven wrong by the next game being about a return to the dawn and aldudagga finally finding its way into a game, perhaps Dagon didn't fail during Oblivion. Perhaps he was stopped before destroying the White-Gold tower, something I think would've caused the disolution of Tamriel's unity, but socially and geographically. However, it's not been expressly stated what was destroyed by the invasion, other than things in Cyrodil. Alduin said that he had to destroy (or at least put back) the stolen parts of previous kalpas. Maybe he did. Who knows? Maybe Kvatch really was the target, and everything else was more or less a "well, the door's unlocked; might as well go through and see what I can't r@pe and pillage,"-type situation.

Kvatch being the target? Nah, I'll have to call BATW on that one. Well, Kvatch obviously was A target, due to the Aka temple, but it was not THE target.
Besides, I don't think that a town would fulfill the "bits and bobs of the world" part, and the top of a big hill wouldn't be the "craziest of places". And Dagon didn't destroy Kvatch. It's still there. He just rearranged it.

Emh, Martin was kinda in Kvatch, you know. If you can't find the heir in the city, might as well burn the whole city.

edit:

Also not relevant to the topic.

Sorry for continuing on the diversion, but I think Kvatch was a primary target mostly because the Battlemages of the 33rd had kicked Dagon's shiny red butts at Kvatch and he had a score to settle.

I always thought that Dagon and his crew attacked Kvatch primarily for the purposes of ending the Septim line once and for all by killing Martin. Fortunately, the CoC got him out before the Daedra killed him. The fact that its Dagon getting his revenge for his prior defeat was just icing on the cake, but you know if he succeeded in breaking through (which he sorta did) he would have gotten to Kvatch sooner or later (most likely sooner).

*blop, blop*, bubbles in the Grey Maybe. There's infinite possibilities for a new kalpa so take your pick. Bit of a quick-fix cheat though, that. Personally I like the Auriel-Lorkhan bungee-cord link idea.



Reminds me of the Hindu triumvirate of Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva. There are the same Creation-Preservation-Destruction elements present, though with different themes.



Some of the great spirits already combined Anu and Padome. Many of the Daedra Princes, for example. Lorkhan has strong Padomaic traits, maybe the union between him and Auriel alone would be enough to kick off a new round of IS<->IS NOT spirals. Maybe their own mini slice of Gray Maybe, or maybe just making a messy situation that's easily influenced by the 'original'. Maybe not; sometimes I give first principles more attention than the nitty-gritty. At the very least you have two pretty important elements of Mundus crashing together and that's bound to shake things up.

I remember reading a post from a LONG time ago that made this assertion in the form of a "Akatosh-is-Lorkhan-is-Dagon" idea.

Might link the post soon.

Perhaps you can deduce that before they became 'Gods' they were ordinary men/mer etc - and on that basis those leaders who survive and/or whose legend survives the end of the kalpa are deified ... by the perspective of the inhabitants of the following Kalpa




Maybe the above puts a bit of perspective on this next post of yours syronj ...

I like the twiglight struggle bit - I guess that's what distance does to events - blurs them and renders them in mauves and purples.

I think this refer to an avatar of Lorkhan, maybe Wulfharth himself or a precursor. It could also mean Lorkhan 'son of' Padome but I'm going for the avatar interpretation.




That first line could just suggest magic being used against the Nord warriors but I get the feeling it has a symbolic mythical meaning. Anyone clue me in?

Someone said that Magnar (Magnus) suggests the war of the Dawn Era, but the presence of the Nords and Nordic aspects of Aedra is from a later date. Is this Nordic myth conflating the Dawn Era with later Nordic wars against elves and other men worshipping 'elven' gods? Or is this set later in the Merithic Era, with this passage being part of the Nord myth of Magnus' departure ('sunrise' doesn't need to mean 'sunrise this morning' after all; it could be in the sense of 'when the sun first rose ever', with the Nords not being aware of the full story).

The 'scaled mane' line is notable, a draconic feature, and so another hint at a Lorkhan-Auriel link.



This seems to support 'Shor son of Shor' as an avatar of Lorkhan. Maybe [untranslateable] could mean 'the Heart of Lorkhan' or it could refer to Skyrim's Tower - perhaps from there Shor son of Shor can convene with the Heart over in the Red Mountain tower.



I wonder if this refers to Aedric aspects altering. The Marukhati only did by design what others do unconsciously. I remember MK commenting on Jhunal's (and others) disappearance before, suggesting some kind of past event that led to his falling out of the Nord pantheon, both in figurative and metaphysical senses.




I don't know what this means but it seems significant.



Overall the elements of the piece that stand out to me are:

- Lorkhan struggling against the Eight
- Aedric impermanence
- Aedra having more than one simple aspect?
- The Lorkhan-Auriel link


Whether Aedric aspects are real, or the delusions of mortals, or conjurings of Lorkhan, or genuinely seperate gods rather than being aspects at all, remains to be seen. Personally I like the idea that Aedra are multifaceted, existing only in Mundus in detailed form through mortal interpretation of their basic spheres, and not limited to a single interpretation.


Maybe a kalpa has something to do with gods/aspects appearing and disappearing. Not so much that this defines a kalpa, but that the events of a kalpa will often cause it. A kalpa might be some kind of Lorkhan-Auriel cycle, one where they are either sundered or united depending on circumstance.

Nice anolysis. Some things are becoming real.

Does anyone know what a Tear Wife is intended to be?

Also by contrast what is a War-Marriage?

I'm getting the impression that Shor has separate wives for separate tasks. A war-wife, Kyne, for going to battle with. A bed-wife, Dibella, for sharing a bed with. The tear-wife, Mara in this case, I suppose would stay at home while the husband goes to war. Taking care of the home and crying. Kind of fits Mara's image.

I think you are correct Moopl



So - father and son



:ahhh:

I wonder what the word wife means in that culture/context? There might be strict separation of roles. Such that the chieftain never sleeps with certain wives etc.

It almost seems that the berserker is about to have his way with the bed-wife of Shor or is banishing her to her or Shor's tent? Is the father dead and so the son is going to take council with the 'ghost' of his father? That would accord with Dunmer traditions - and one might then wonder if the Dunmer copied from the Nords, or was the tradition common to both races/cultures at that time?

Then Shor walking away from his War-Wife is definitely the Son - but is Dibella another of Sor the son's wives or Shor the father's wife?



- Kyne could have stopped what was going on, so it seems she has authority and further confirms her role as the 'Queen'
- Stuhn and Tsun appear to be 'shifting' - is that traditional shapeshifting or some kind of Et'Ada hangover?
- Mara it appears is a handmaiden and a 'wife'
- and there is The Pact - this does not seem like the Bosmer Pact with Yffre but of another kind? Is this a Pact between different peoples or within their community defining the roles of the members of the community?

Quite a tease this piece - full of detail yet also based on assumptions that the reader is party to various matters that are immediately clear in the exerpt.

Well it still has the feel of the Dawn Ages to me - there is a certain amorphousness there as well as distance in time and custom.

At the same time it sorta reminds me of a certain ancient Telvanni and his four daughter-wives

Shor son of Shor is likely a King or Chieftan of the Nords, as well as divinity, and I get the impression that his wives would be like royal wives often were - more like allies and supporters in high matters rather than subservient spouses. Given that his wives are Aedra, that would fit the mold. What's interesting though is that they help Lorkhan at all. The Aedra weren't said to be too happy about being tricked by him. Either the Nord myths have got things hopelessly wrong or the Aedra aren't as straightforwards as fantasy gods tend to be. Well we already know they aren't THAT straightforwards, lol, but I'm suggesting they're even weirder. A sphere can be said to have infinite faces, after all.

That's the old man/mer schism- Lorkhan as father or devil.

It's interesting that you have arrived at the idea that Shor is a 'God-being' within this scenario 4LOM - up to now I have been assuming that they are simply Nords who later rose or were uplifted into Godhood ... so is it the father or the son that is the God Shor? Note the son goes to the father for advice?

Now that you have approached the topic from that side, it occurs that maybe these may be Aedra in the form of Nords roleplaying what they want the Nords to become ( lol for irony) - just as mortals re-enact certain mythic sequences to mantle ...

The other side of the coin could be that these are not the past Shor and co, but actually future people who have come full circle?

I don't take the events and actions literally. I think of them as mythic abstracts. 'Seeking counsel with his father' to me could me connecting with Skyrim's tower to convene with his et'Ada self, maybe to get a god's-eye view of events or to draw power from it, to commune with the Heart in Morrowind's tower (for the same), or a combination thereof.

My assumption is that the 'father' is Lorkhan the et'Ada. The 'son' is his avatar, possibly Wulfharth (known to have fought the Alessians to reinstate Nordic versions of the gods), though you'd think he'd be mentioned by name if so, so there's reason to think it's a different avatar, maybe an earlier one. Not certain though. The exact identity of Shor son of Shor is still up for grabs.




Possible, though I've always assumed the Aedra are more passive than that, and I take the tale as being abstract rather than literal - a Nordic oral tradition garbling in-world, and cryptic MK enlightened-obfuscation out-world .



Also possible. I assumed an old tale because of the presence of Jhunal, a god known to have disappeared from the Nordic pantheon at some point before the 1st Era. That doesn't mean he couldn't have crept back into favour at some future date.

If so maybe Jhunal disappeared because he leap-frogged to th efuture - tough luck on the leaping demon-king who is stuck where he is

That sorta led me to wonder if MK is now intent on 'tying the circle' into a closed loop - or breaking it free.

As for the Et'Ada being passive, that would have to be a matter of style - turning yourself into an entire race is not exactly a passive action however quietly achieved. But there again passive and giving birth are certainly female characteristics.

MK asked what we could make of his RP - Thinking through your Lorkhan/Shor the father (of the race) concept could give birth to a very narsty scenario - if the creation of the 'new' race of man/Nord is accomplished by the Et'Ada through the channelling of 'star energy'/magica. We know the mer hate this and wish to wipe out mankind - consonant with MK's offering.

Failing this the mer build the towers as a stop-gap, not to access the magica/Aetherius, but to close off as much of the apertures through which the magica arrives as they can = a very different story than we are given but entirely sympathetic to the mer penchant for destroying the world to annihilate mankind and usher in a new era.

That puts the plight and actions of the Leaping Demon King/now Dagon in a very different light - you could almost wonder if Dagon is really Lorkhan - and that would explain why mer generally oppose Dagon - assuming Dagon is trying to destroy the towers.

Then you would have to wonder if Mythic Dawn are totally evil or merely misguided in their efforts.


Unless this is about Shor/Lorkhan attempting something entirely different ... but what the 'war/dispute is about would be a useful item - and is this actually an RP about the Dawn Era battles with Lorkhan etc?

It's fun when a Dev says 'not Lore' , but asks what if ... still, MK is is clearly a tease.

I'm still thinking it's a tale set in the past (before 4E) and I think it may well be featuring Wulfharth after all. There's a few tallying elements between this thread's tale and the Five Songs of King Wulfharth.


I still think the changing god-aspects are a key part, a kapla symptom, hinted at here especially with Jhunal and Tsun being prominent, but the mechanics still escape me.

Some more MK 'not-lorisms' might apply. I made a passing reference to these quotes earlier, so I decided to search for 'em and here they are. The first one is in answer to someone asking "Why just 16 Daedric Princes" and the second is from the same thread when the topic shifted to cover god natures in general.



____




I also remember a line from him somewhere about 'unrealized gods', shadow-gods that never made it out of the grey potential and into the light of reality. I reckon that ties in too.

Then there's a comment about Arkay that termed him "lies from a previous kalpa".

I wonder if kalpas turn when Lorkhan and Akatosh clash, the clash changing these two centrally important beings (for Mundus at any rate) and by extension allowing other things in the Aurbis to be altered (more as a 'sideways shift in perspective' than tumult and chaos). New pantheons often seem to pop up when a Lorkhan avatar is gallavanting about (Pelinial -> Alessian pantheon, Ysmir -> Nordic god reinstatement and then alteration after his death, and of course Lorkhan-as-Talos bouncing his way back into human popularity). I think it's interesting to note which gods feature in which pantheons and when. Maybe more on this later.

Again though, this assumes that the gods of the Elves and the gods of Men are really one and the same underneath - if they are genuinely distinct and seperate entities then all my speculation is wrong for sure.

This makes me think of the Rebel/King cycle. Possibly, it works like a pendulum. Everytime they clash (are active at the same time), shifts the power axis from man to mer and back again. This could also be used as a means to explain how the mannish and merrish gods are the same entities. Rather than gods shaping mortals, perhaps the mortals shape the gods; of course exactly who was shaping them would depend on who came out on top, of course. I dunno. That's just my early morning, just got out of bed, still drinking my Mountain Dew and trying to wake up, two cents.

It might work like this, every dawn works like the un-times of D breaks in that paradoxes are possible. Each god is represented by a mannish aspect and a merrish, both active at the same time and mirroring the battle between Aka and Lorkhan. 8 for the mer with Auriel at the lead and 8 for the men with Shor at the lead. Whoever wins shapes the next Kalpa. The losers have to go dormant and their leader goes into exile to become the "missing god" of that Kalpa. Or some crap like that. I'm rambling aren't I?

Ooooh. Numbers!!! 8+8=16! What am I getting at? I have no idea. Just thought it was weird. After all, number have signigicance. If there are 16 aedric aspects, then the equation is balanced between daedra and aedra. Oh well, back to Mountain Dew.

I'm not going to pretend to understand all these mystical, metaphysical mumblings but it is interesting and refreshing to see a universe superficially under the impression of progressive historiography while ultimately cyclical. The fact that these ideas have such a large interested audience would suggest the opening of the modern collective mind.

Those quotes are great 4LOM - and the telescope makes me think of the stuff we were discussing with SkyShadowing earlier:



Luargar 2 came up with the name the name of Alduin the World Eater - that gives The Greedy Man (is this a mer view of Lorkhan?) and The Leaping Demon King who is Mehrunes Dagon ...

To put this together with The Dude's 16 Gods = 8 + 8 ? Dawn and Dusk - or the Rise of the Precursor and the waking of Yffre? So if the men ascend you have the current batch and if the mer triumph then the men's Gods go to sleep (and become the Earth Bones) and the Mer batch awake with the New Dawn

Factor in the question of what the effect of the tampering in the World-eating process by his Greedyness and Dagon will produce? As in have the effects been halted in time or will Alduin (despite his discovery of the plot) eventually be damaged - and so the mundus also? Might that result in all 16 gods awakening simultaneously for instance - and what happens then?

What exactly do the Earthbones achieve and what would be the actual effect if there were none?

No idea if this is what MK is on about or something new- but it sure sounds hectic and fun!