Maybe the gods have lost their free will because they have seen way too many kalpas to believe in it. And if you don't believe in free will, you don't have it.

They are denied free will, because they exist eternally, and recursively.

Mortals can have free will, because they are transient.

So we're all Lorkhan? Sweet; I find that kinky and incistuous.

I actually like rationalizing this idea of kalpas and endless rebirths from a purely metaphysical perspective. Forget, for a moment, the idea of the individual as a "body" -- a physical, corporeal being -- and instead reject physicality as an illusion (like Plato, I guess) and insist that the individual is an idea, a concept, a single self-defining meme or, to quote the Tsaesci, a Name. Perhaps the end of each kalpa is simultaneously a cataclysm and a miracle, brought about by a single individual (remembering that this means a single idea) that so imposes its existence upon everything else that it becomes existence itself through CHIM.

Imagine, if you would, a world where the presence of the metaphysical concept of Adventurous Putty is as fundamental and easily taken for granted as the presence of time or destruction in our own. Perhaps the gods, with their many interwoven names and characteristics, are the mingled thought-concepts of a previous existence that so stubbornly made the case for their existence that they thought, and by thinking, one by one, they were, ushering in a new existence. And perhaps that new existence itself was the thought of Lorkhan, who so thoroughly integrated himself that he became the new idea of becoming, is the idea of being at all.

But that was a shot in the dark.

And now, in the high-brow, constructive, and totally insightful philosophy that "CHIM is the construction set, lol": each kalpa is a game in the series. Each time the universe is destroyed and remade anew, picking up some time after where it was left, but different.


:P

Sounds like the Essential Hero is required once again - so next time the Hero has to destroy the world?

Adventurous Putty everywhere? The continuum held together by Putty? I'm trying to imagine it :facepalm: not easy - a bit of an extreme example that.

What if I am the Godhead?

*gasp*

Oh shi -- [NUMINIT]

:nuke: Ohh noes DEVS - alert - Putty in Meltdown - SOP (save our putty) :violin:

this is what she said last night:

It repeats itself because it must. Free will is the next subgradient. To love it is to kill it.

Is it possible that the one thing that is different in every kalpa is the addition of a new spoke on the wheel? In the previous kalpa, there were Eight, and in this kalpa, there are Nine?

I can't sleep, and had this idea as I laid there, trying to get to sleep.

I don't recall seeing anything about Dragon Breaks making new spokes.

I also don't recall hearing Talos being another spoke. From anywhere. He just mantled Lorkhan.

Dude, you totally lost me. I'm confusticated now.

I like what Lady Nerevar was saying, though, about a dawn that is not a dawn being dusk instead.

I think you have landed on one of those things that has no Lore either way. So there might be one less Spoke too.

Just as Gods may be mantled so it does appear that the Towers and the Spokes correspond - but I've not come accross anything that might suggest that creating a New Tower also creates a New Spoke for example - rather Towers seem to have been created to match existing Towers. If this is incorrect you might ask if a Tower 'loses' it's heart does it cease to be a Tower and therefore does the corresponding spoke cease to be a spoke?

But whether there is a shape or progression associated with the many Kalpas is an interesting topic. Now that I look closer at your question I wonder if you are asking if Kalpas and Spokes correspond too?

Speculation based on your suggestion would then be: If you assume that Time is the Hub then each Kalpa might be a Spoke and all contained within the Mundus suffounded by the Aurbis. To see it this way may be to accept that the Wheel is multi-aspected and that there is a progression.

Then you would have to ask if growth within the Wheel is possible - considering that 'all time' is considered to be bound within the Wheell, thereby binding all within the Wheel to it.

If internal growth exists then that might be represented by the appearence of a New Spoke/Kalpa and thus although the Wheel is circular there is also change and growth.

No idea if that is a new way of looking at it so that should be enough to give the buffs something to refute or otherwise play with.


What then interests me is: what external force is the hub of the wheel powering or being powered by?

And you also have a 3 tiered progression: Tower ... Spoke ... Kalpa

An alternate structure would be if Kalpas are the Spaces Between the Spokes. And if not, what do the Spaces represent or correspond to?

I think of one consequence: the Empire of Tamriel is Aldmeris?

I can't say whether or not it's right or wrong, but it sounds very nifty in the least...

But there are not nine spokes in 'this Kalpa', there are eight...

You're asking/theorizing what the spaces, spokes, and hub are, but we already know from http://www.imperial-library.info/obscure_text/vehk_teaching.shtml#3. Time is not the hub, we (Mundus) are the hub; the Spaces correspond to the Daedric Princes, the spokes correspond to the Aedra.

If Vekh has achieved Chim has he left the Mundus? He has transcended, right?

And if he has left what new power takes his place?

And with a new power can there be a new order and arrangement of the structure of things?

edit: What will eat the world?

I highly...highly doubt it, seeing as we haven't seen anything to suggest this.

Unless you have some sort of support.

I'm trying to make sense of the title of this thread

MK calls it World eating 101 - so I ask: What will eat the world?

I feel there has to be something new here ... new = either a diferent perspective or something added or taken away - and SkyShadowing came up with something new. Question then is does it fit? So far no one has been able to say yes or no to that so I have tried to extend it towards known territory, but I keep getting drawn back to that thread title - as in what eats the world? Well maybe time - but what else?

Alduin eats the world, making room for the next one. The elves "erase man from the mythic," reconstruct the pure Aurbis, Akatosh rejoins Lorkhan as they are eaten up by the higher level of subgradient.

No

http://www.imperial-library.info/obscure_text/aldudagga.shtml, it is in his name...

Why does there have to be something else? But, if you're going to go along that line of thought it probably wouldn't be what else, but who else... I guess somebody new could take Alduin's place and eat the world...

Of course, this may just be my over-anolytical side showing through, but MK said "I won't tell you what I mean by 'new'" - just by making this statement he gives us reason to assume we shouldn't use the traditional definition of 'new' (as in, something new is added)...

Edit: Clarification

For minor clarification, Alduin seems more like a combo of Anu and Padhome more than Aka, even though there are obvious elements that Alduin shares with Aka.

Try Satakal, litterally Satak and Akal.

:o

I would LOVE that! No more of this 'saving the world' crap for me! I'm gonna eat it! :liplick:

Didn't the tscae (sp?) have this whole world eating thing going on with snakes and logic and numbers and stuff?

That sounds like a certain Time Travelling Composite Being in the making - referrin to wassisname who came from the future - only I would imagine that he would have been a composite of myrriad smaller creatures and not just a couple of biggies.

About Alduin - now that he knows what Dagon and the Greedy Man have been up to can he undo their work? He curses Dagon to undo it, but maybe Dagon cannot ... so what happens if Alduin is unable to eat all and explodes???



If Alduin or Dagon undoes Dagon's and the Greedy Man's stuff then what happens? The mer apparently believe they will be able to restore the Aurbis - but what happens if something has changed and they cannot?

As I said earlier, new = either a different perspective or something added or taken away - what could be added or taken away from this process that is indicated by what we have experienced and read in-game and out ... or could seeing it from a different perspective in itself be enough to change events?

oops, just realised: NO, I do not want to be my grandad or grandma and conceive my mum and dad. Grandpa and Grandma were very much in love and would not need my assistance ty

True dat. Think "Varieties of Faith" makes that exact assertion, so I just wanted to be kinda original.

TESV = the breaking of the cycle.

Talos mantles/becomes Lorkhan.
His descendent (Uriel VII) destroyes Lorkhan's heart (through Nerevarine).
Ureil's descendent (Martin) becomes Akatosh.
Lorkhan is Akatosh is Lorkhan.

The Serpent dies. Tamriel lives.