:=: Enclave - Mk II :=:, you talk as if Shady Sands (NCR) was the only settlement, created from Vault 15 Vault dwellers and they multiplied to populate California. That is not true. As I posted before, there are many ways people survived the great war.

Junktown
Hub
Den
Klamath
San Francisco
Modoc
Redding
New Reno
Plus all the location of Tactics

All populated by people that survived outside of a Vault.

The Vaults of Fallout 3 killed or made crazy all those that lived in them but Vault 101. The population of DC could not have come from the Vaults in Fallout 3.

The Brotherhood of Steel Came form Mariposa and look how many there are of them.

I think my 10,000 is credible for NCR.



AND lore wise there is more than a handful of people in them. At least I think that is how it works, due to the Gamebryo engine being terrible.

Omg you are all idiots...

Listen, And read carefully. This is the last post I'm making.

There are 4 vaults in the core region at the time of fallout 1. Vault 15 (3000 people to test over crowding), Vault 13 (prolonged isolation for 200 years), and the one under the LA boneyard, and The one under Bakersfield (Necropolis) to see how radiation would effect the inhabitants.

Vault 15 opened near the time of Fallout 1. That explains why Shady sands is a small village.

However, across the USA, there are already opened vaults. These vaults being opened as early as 1 day after the war (to test immediate radiation effects). These groups would have 200ish years to populate the wasteland. That gives the early opening vaults time to repopulate the wasteland. These vaults where not meant to save anyone, but still gave birth, literally and figuratively, to the population of the post war USA and migrate around the land (You can get a follower in FO1 that comes from Utah I think). Lets say just 1/3 of the vaults had people that lasted longer that the war (meaning they only survived the nuclear blastes), and then opened up right after the explosions. That means 30,000 people across the USA in the year 2078. Given 200 years, 700000 is not that hard to reach. Now, that only uses 1/3 the vaults.

This is important here: Just because the Vaults where not meant to save anyone, does not mean that everyone who stepped into them died. There where just failures that forced the population to move out into the wasteland.

Now, fast forward to Fallout 1. The population has not quite reached the 700,000 size population of Fallout 2 yet, but there are still some vaults opening. One of which is Vault 15.

It eventually forms Shady sands and the raider groups there. The group of Shady sands then starts expanding to take over other cities that had been formed by the descendants that came from the vaults that opened in 2078. These people did not come from vaults, but their great great great great grandparents did.

This is all I read, then decided it wasn't worth it.

EDIT: I knew Styles would set him straight

Why was there some mass exodus to California when every other Vault Dweller have built their settlements close to the Vault.... idiot. Please come down from the cloud topped heights of Olympus to inform us please! This cannot be your last words on the topic!

Your explaination is flawed and requires some real coincidenses, eg, everyone from Vaults miles around coming to California.

Which we know is brahim crap.

Vault 8 dwellers created Vault City and it had a small population of xenophobic people.

Vault 15 did spawn Shady Sands, Khans, Viper and Jackals. They all let outsiders join. Khans, Vipers and Jackals were hostile raider groups and we don't even see Vipers and Jackles till new Vegas and by then they are almost wiped out. Khans have been destoyed and rebuilt from the ground up by letting in outsiders.

Shady Sands was the only settlement created by Vault Dwellers in Fallout. The others, Junktown and Hub were populated by none Vault Dwellers.

San Francisco has a large chinese population that came from a Chinese Missile Sub and a large population that did not come from any Vault.



Demonstration Vault had no people. Vault 13 never opened but for the Vault Dweller and he later formed Arroyo. The Vault Dwellers were later captured by the Enclave. The one in Bakersfield, (Vault 12) the people became ghouls. That just leaves Vault 15 and at the time of Fallout 1 there were other populated settlements besideds Shady Sands.

Most wastelanders are decendants of those people who lived through the war outside of vaults. I didn't even think this was in dispute. :confused:

:=: Enclave - Mk II :=:, disputes it. He called us all idiots :bonk:

Apparently those who believe what you said are idiots.

Here's some definte proof from Fallout 3 right off the top of my head.

Underworld was created by people who survived the war and eventually turned into ghouls. Carol also mentions that they hid there to escape the rioters and looters who were outside. Those rioters and looters weren't vault dwellers....

More proof comes from New Vegas, Raul. He came from Mexico City. No Vaults in Mexico and he talks about survivors as well.

Fallout 2 we have people from Canada. Marge LaBarge.

Brotherhood of Steel came form Mariposa.

There are no Vaults shown in Fallout Tactics other then Vault Zero and the Midwest is populated as well.

Plus like I said many times by now.

Junktown
Hub
Den
Klamath
San Francisco
Modoc
Redding
New Reno

All populated by none Vault Dwellers.

Remember he quit, no need to state the obvious.

I have a feeling he may come back.

Anyways back on topic. 20 to 70 million world wide would be in the ball park.

I say thats a good figure to go by as well.

Just cause I feel like it I'll post my idea of what may have happened.

1. Nukes were launched killed 50% of the world's population lets say roughly 4 billion is half.
2. Huge radiation clouds filled the sky killing 95% of the population - 200 million left
3. Starvation and other disease kill about 50% - 75%
4. For the first couple decades Raiders and Criminals and other diseases wreak havoc putting it at about 20-30 million
5. Small groups band together to protect themselves later form large settlements.
6. The next 2 centuries the population slowly crawls to about 60 million worldwide.

Sounds like what happened.

Very poor living standards, disease, scarce resources, shorter life span, high infant mortality rate, ghoulification & mutation, murder rates and wars, would keep the population from growing. Only until Nations like NCR started to form would that start changing.

"A quiet darkness fell across the planet lasting many years."

I was actually stuck whether or not the radiation killed more people or the bombs, and now that I think of it the radiation probally wins... oh well.

I believe the nukes would kill more people that the radiation. Most of the planets population would died one way or the other. If the nukes did not get them, the radiation would have.

"In two brief hours most of the planet was reduced to cinders"
"A great cleansing, an atomic spark struck by human hands quickly raged out of control."

To me that means the Nukes got most of the people as well as the fire storms that would follow. Everything would be radioactive as well.

Just to say again, last year I had to research the topic, and it was a debate how much it would kill. People say 5% but others say 95%. Neither of them mentioned Radiation, just the bombs.

So I think it can go either way as there is no way to find out about total nuclear war.

Was this debate. Was it about total all out nuclear war aka armageddon. Or was it about tactical low level nuclear war? 5% is just way to low, it would have to be at least 50% Both Russia and America lone have enough nukes to destroy all life on earth several times over.

Also as you said they were not including radiation, fire storms and the total collapse of all civilization. Which is odd that they did not factor that in.

Just to be clear we agree but I like talking about the details. :foodndrink:

No it was debate. The fire storm is the bomb by the way. It was about whether the bombs would destroy civilization. It was indeed about armageddon. Some people said it wouldn't hurt that much people 5% (350,000,000 people) I thought that was rather low too, but them some said that it would just completely wipe out everyone. It didn't really have a neutral zone, good thing it isn't a popular topic If so my teacher probally would have put a big F on that for all the rational stuff I put in there.. Too bad I hadn't played Fallout at the time either... Luckily there was one book that offered quality information.

Yeah we agree, the "experts" aren't too smart. It is hard to be an expert about something that is complete speculation too

Well since we don't have an absolute figure of the total populationin 2077 it's impossible to make an educated guess. It could be less than in our timeline, but I'm inclined to think it is more.

The intro to Fallout 2 states the following:



The resources don't matter in this point since we know the world was nearly or already without them. It's the space thing that nags me. Cities can go on building new homes. Once they start building apartments they can house even more.

The intro to Fallout shows the glimpse a city [img]http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20061021172905/fallout/images/2/28/Vault-Tec_Industries.jpg[/img] wich shows large apartment buildings.

If all cities in the world are like this (unlikely, but for the sake of arguement let's assume they do) the world population can easily be as much as 10 billion.

Since a nuclear bomb isn't as devastating as most people think, (source: http://homepage.mac.com/msb/163x/faqs/nuclear_warfare_101.html, http://homepage.mac.com/msb/163x/faqs/nuclear_warfare_101.html and http://homepage.mac.com/msb/163x/faqs/nuclear_warfare_103.html), they need to throw a whole lot of them to be effective as a MAD-measure.

Since no nation has unlimited nuclear warheads they will pick the most valuable targets such as military bases, population centers and vital keypoints in the infrastructure. The initial blasts will most likely kill a third of the world population at maximum. A lot of the world's population just lives in places not worth nuking.

So, now we'll have (if we start counting from 10 billion) about 6.5 billion people left after the initial blasts. about another third of that will not make it past the next few weeks because of their injury, reducing the survivors to about 4.4 billion people.

So we've dealt with the attacks and the aftermath of it right?

No. After the nuclear war comes the collapse of civilisation. Panic, famine, riots, disease, fallout and just crap luck will kill about half to a third of what remains. So, nowe we are stuck with about 2 billion people. A negligiable amount of them will be in actual fallout shelters, more will be in impovised shelters such as basemants, sewer drains, old buildings, caverns (lamplight). The majority of them would be sheltered in farm communities accross the worlds. Since life has just become a lot harder and medical science is practically non existent a few good people will die until an equilibrium is reached. I figure it at about a billion minimum and one and a half billion at max.

Those survivors worldwide would toil and scraqe by for years until they are able to rebuild any form of civilisation. Since as far as we know the only the US has vaults, I think the rest of the world would be tribals and ghouls.

I have no basis for these numbers since they aren't found anywhere. I've googled on global nuclear war calculations and took an average percentage that seemed reasonable. The starting world population is an uneducated guess.

Finally someone who realized this!

I think that since there wasn't a cold war nukes probally barely got passed a few megatons. I'd say though they would have had no limitation treaties, so the arsenals would have built and built and built. The US had about 32,000 at its peak in real life. Probally less than that, but maybe 20,000 in the Fallout world. They might have started to crank them out towards the end of the world ex. Fort Constantine with all its extra bombs.

Based on that I think China would have a bit more, as they were going to fall back on the plan so maybe 22,500.

There are about 19,000 cities in the US big and small. You destroy about 5,000 of those with bombs, and maybe throw some extras here and there. About 2 bombs per city, I'd say China has about 10,000 bombs left. They destroy warhouse with 1 each so minus about i don't know... 5,000. 3,000 are left to destroy military stuff, which should be easy enough, there aren't huge numbers of those. The last 2,000 go to other places.

Same with US, they are just more strategic and the soldiers made less land to nuke, so about 3,000 of their bombs go to other places.

Europe lauches say there whole combined total of 1,000 bombs. 250 to US 250 to China 500 to other countries

The rest of Asia, maybe 2,000 nukes. Again 250 to US 250 to China 1,500 to rest of the world.

Poissibility of USSR having a decent amoun maybe 3,000 500 to US 500 to China 2,000 to rest of the world

Alright as this is pure speculation, I think it turned out pretty well. The result would be definite destroyed world. But, the point of me making this is to show how little the other countries probally got nuked compared to US and China. And we know that the west coast has at least 2 million citizens/people (including Caesar's Legion), well almost know.

Give the rest of the US 2 million as they had it worse. So US population 4-5 million. China probally would have 1-2 million total. And the rest of the world would outclass these countries with population.

What wonderwombat said.

Although I find two bombs per city quite lacking. Two warheads filled with a few bombs is even to small in my opinion, If I remember correctly a number of 8 airbursts was the MINIMUM to damage a city to the satisfaction of the bomber. I can't recall if they were talking about Warheads or Missles. I believe I've read it somewhere on www.nukefix.org

So that even lowers the killing potentiel four times.

Here is a neat interactive sight http://www.fas.org/programs/ssp/nukes/nuclear_weapon_effects/nuclearwpneffctcalc.html?formAction=297&contentId=367

I figure the average bomb for them would be about 50 kilotons, maybe 100 kilotons.

Then an average city almost like Cincinnati. The 50 kiloton wipes out more than half, so 2 should be good.

They probally also had some megaton bombs, but far less than what was made in real life, maybe the largest was 5 megaton. The simulator goes to 4, but 4 wipes out any city. The only cities that could take a 4 megaton bomb and be ok is LA, Chicago, probally New York, and probally Houston.