I dont think the lvl stat system is really that bad at all. If you go changing it too much it may end up not even feeling like a tes game.

In Morrowind, Galsiah's Character Development and MADD Leveler made skill and attribute increases happen gradually as you used the relevent skills. In Oblivion, nGCD and Kobu's did pretty much the same things. In a few of them, the skills affected one "controlling" attribute more than the others, but several received smaller increases. I recall swinging a Longsword and seeing my Personality attribute go up a point at one time (kind of an extreme example). I think that may have been "stretching" things a bit, but I can see where using a weapons could (and probably SHOULD) cause small increases to Speed, Endurance, and Agility, as well as the obvious and larger Strength boost. The existing system of skills and attributes is great, but the current way they're increased at level-up when you sleep, with "multipliers", could use some help. Bethesda should at least give those levelling mods a good look.

Beyond that, the "hard cap" of skills and attributes at 100 made all characters begin to turn into the same "clone" hero at high levels. Beyond 100, the rate of skill increases should be at least 4X as hard, or get progressively slower at each 10 points over 100, so 110 would be quite possible in one or two skills and attributes, but 150 would be somewhere between amazing and impossible. Maximum limits might well be affected by one's initial choices, so you could have the "potential" to go above 100 on your Major skills by making the most of your inborn abilities, but not on Minors where you're starting with an inherent weakness. I also don't mind seeing a couple of specific "perks" for quest rewards by certain factions, or as "one time" choices between two or three possibilities (a character could only get ONE of them), so one character would be "different" from another due to the course they chose. Late-game characters need to maintain some distinctiveness, and "automatic perks" like in OB don't do that, because EVERYONE gets them at those same skill levels. "Plentiful" perks as in FO3 cheapen and in many cases bypass the basic skill and attribute system, turning normal character advancement into nothing more than a waste of programming. The SPECIAL system in FO3 was fine, it's just that the game hardly used it.......

It wouldn't be too different, it would be all the same system except that levelling attributes would happen directly from increasing skills instead of the level up screen.

Edit: Galhiahs character development has a bad rulesystem IMO, the way the leveling works is awesome, but GCD changes the rulesystem so it gets weird. An example: my supposed dunmer hybrid character that was supposed to fight with bow, axe and destruction could whack an ascended sleeper or golden saint losing half his life with a dwemer battle axe at level 10, while he still totally svcked at destruction and shooting simply because I chose combat as a preference. That broke my game, nice with level 100 at axes at level 10 or so, killing everything, whith all else still back in the 40s.

Only if you're bothered about powerlevelling and having absolute control over how your character develops. I don't care about those things, and in fact it makes an interesting change from D20 and other similar systems. So no, it doesn't 'literally' force me to do anything of the sort.

No one is going to purposefully make a crappy character when they know they can make the best character.

Nonsense. Apart from people deliberatly creating flawed characters for challenge and fun, there's people roleplaying and those who simply can't be bothered by it.

There should be no bad character build, they should all be good an a way, just not the same way.

Exactly. Which Is why I propose the same level up system that Diablo uses,

How is it?

That's not so much a problem with the character advancement system, as with the lack of options dealing with problems in the game though.

Why, for example, if I'm a master of Speechcraft, Mercantile and a few related skills, do I still have to fight random bandits instead of persuading them to let me go, or even to work for me?

Ever played diablo? its a great game.

When you level up you get 5 points to put in Str, Dex, or Mag.

In Diablo 2

When you level up you get 5 points to put in Str, Dex, or Mag. And you get to choose a skill or spell learned.

You can save stat points between levels to apply them at a later date when you need them to equip a certain item or weapon, and you can save skill points to make known skills even more powerful.

When you level up you choose stats and skills in side windows while your still playing, and can increase your level as you play. You dont get taken to a seperate screen to apply your level, and you dont need to rest to level.

This system means that every character is balanced. And no character can boast that it is better.

if they did things exactly like MW for leveling and skills id be completely happy. things like being forced into powergaming were things i only noticed in OB. it would help the whole situation if there were still guild requirements, because then youd have to accomplish something and level up ur skills appropriately before being faced with enemies who were actually tough.

Agreed; I felt stressed to get higher multipliers, fearing I'd not be able to increase them as high if my skills maxed before my attributes did. Though, the worst that can happen is you'd have to use or train a miscellaneous skill governed by your lacking attribute and level by increasing something you neglected, like Speechcraft or something.

Oblivion is so close to the Morrowind system that I can't agree with you, CHEESES.

Seriously: pool of 7 skills vs 2x5 that controls leveling? fine. Most people that aren't completely opposed to levels do not mind this. Either one is a sane method of determining character advancement. It tends to feel somewhat natural.

Skiills determined by one-shot multipliers? same in both. FAIL. The system is terrible for role-playing because performing certain actions in differing orders can result in excessively strange variations in results, while the actual skill changes are very similar. Basically, Morrowind and Oblivion both create the absurdity that a character that gains 5 levels in 5 skills (2 in the controlling pool, 3 out) in two consecutive levels (for 10lv/skill) is weaker than a character who gains 10 levels in the same skills, but does it in groups of 10.

I'm pretty sure that's why most people claim it's power gaming fodder: because it is. There's a reason people use MADD Leveler, GCD, and the Oblivion equivalents. (I'll probably be trying my hand at a modded system if TESV is similar to the 3/4 systems). So I'll be unsatisfied with the TES3/4 system bein retained as-is. And I'll be writing an alternate one if it comes to that.

I have never powerleveled/planned a character in Morrowind or Oblivion. I make my class and play the game. When I level, I rest and allocate my points and keep on just playing. I see no problem, works fine that way.

Well I allways increase my strength, endurance, and int first. I need to carry as much loot as I can as soon as possible. I liked how they did it in Falotu 3, you set your stats when you make your character, adn they dont change.

Why is this more balanced than an improved TES system?

LPS asked what the diablo system was like.

The choices were simpler, you get a set amount of points to increase.

A level 60 Wizard will have just as many stat points as a lvl 60 barbarian.

That's true, it's balanced, but the proposed system that's in use in mods like GCD is just as balanced and allows for more customization and less genericness.

No! this is the opposite of what TES was built upon. Did you look at the begining of theis topic? you shouldn't be able to lvl up skills you never used, ex. "kill 100 monsters to lvl up lockpick"

Also I love diablo 2 and am SO pumped for Diablo 3 however that system was not built for skills and unique charactrers like TES's rule system of lvling up and advancing.

MY problem with any facet of Oblivion was the guard AI. They were all powerful and omnicient...the local guard had the powere of forseight of the gods....however this is fixed with The Guad overhaul by...REN, I think i anct remember who did it.

I wasn't aware there was a lvl scaling problem till I read this evem my stealth characters could take down larger foes...its called a bow. If you do not lvl up fighting skills by choice...then I think you SHOULD have your ass beaten...it makes sense


I really dont have a problem with morrowind either

When playing MW or OB I just made a character and played him/her the way I intended and I had no problems with the leveling. Then again I don't care for perfection with stats because you mostly end up kicking every things ass anyway.

To me personally, a balance is the best option.

I like the way how skills level when you use them, it does make sense, however, at each level I think an arbitrary number could be given to level any skill in a direction.

I draw upon Pen and Paper adventures in this. This is where, yes, you do go out and kill foes and complete quests, but in your down time you are reading up on Religion or how to brew potions or whatever. In a computer game, as in a Pen and Paper game, it doesn't appeal to me to be watching my toon do this for an hour so he can learn these skills, it is assumed he/she does it off screen.

So I believe that a balance could work in that skills used strongly influence how they level (as it is now), but with the addition or arbitrary points to distribute each level as well.

For the most part, I prefer TES's rulesystem to others. I like how classes aren't restricted to certain skills, but there's still some degree of importance of their major skills.

The experience broken down among the skills is a way better way of doing it than just one big experience pool. I'm surprised more games haven't taken this up (this is only the second game series I've played that does it this way). The problems I have with the system is the ability multiplier's upon level up, and the lack of character type identity.

The multiplier basically makes it so there's a right way to level up. You don't have to use it to your advantage, and I usually don't to tell the truth. This I think would be better handled with a pool of learning points that you get whenever you level up, and you go to different places to train individual abilities at the cost of these points (and perhaps money), ie. a gym or physical training area for strength and endurance. The point cost for abilities could increase as your score in that ability increases.

Lack of character type identity means that characters tend to converge on a certain character type/design. Basically the class that you choose/make at the beginning only effects the start of the game. This is because the only difference between classes is your starting skill values. If they added specialization specific abilities/benefits this would make the class you chose different from other classes at the start and the end of the game. That, or they could make it so certian skill perks are specialization dependant.

Great idea, but to go further, I would say that any perks should be dependent on your selected character's Major skills, and there should be a lot of them. This would help set a character's identity much more as they really would be able to do things that others could not.

Also, the idea that characters should magically develop these perks is a little off, IMO; make it so that acquiring these perks demands players go on quests / find a special trainer and pay a LOT once the relevant skill is high enough.

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With regards to someone's suggestion earlier that they would like to see eating/sleeping a requirement, I really do not see that it would be all that difficult to make it an option that players can choose to switch on or off.