I Would Give Up Dragons For... : V - Skyrim

» Sat Feb 19, 2011 10:03 am

Well, for starters, you're going about this argument the wrong way. First, you're using general statistics about the whole team and breaking it down into exact, percentage-based groups that can manage various projects based on an ASSUMED difficulty. You claim that 9% of the workforce focused on one part of the whole game is a bad idea, and that you should lead them to focus on other pursuits - but what frustrates me is that you have no knowledge whatsoever of what kind of necessarily work was required to accomplish this goal, nor any absolute knowledge of how significant that part (dragons) could really be to the game. So unless you know the exact or even general requirements necessary for game developing professionals to successfully design a series of dragon creatures from their appearances, to their attacks and even their animations and voices, then I'm quite privvy to doubting your expertise in the field and, therefore, your criticism of their team structure. That doesn't even mention that you have NO idea what sort of effort it takes to build the rest of the game, what sort of man power that requires, how everyone is supposed to coordinate their single projects, and further, how everything is meant to translate into the final product. Yet there you are, making EXACT statements about what should go down as if you know exactly what you're talking about.

So is your argument logical? Not really. Maybe to you it does in your own preconceived idea of how developing teams work, or how you THINK you'd do it, but not to me. That doesn't even mention that I completely disagree with you regardless, but I thought you deserved a focus on the premise of your argument instead.

In any case, I'm done.

Well, I will admit my statistics are not exact. I've tried my best to find some rock solid descriptor of their dev team size, and I can't find it. I do know that when development started on Morrowind, it was 6 people. So, even if my number of devs at 100 is plus or minus a few, it's a drop in the bucket comparitively. I have heard that Oblivion was <100 and Skyrim may be as high as 130, and those are ridiculously huge teams, many videogames get by with 30, open world games maybe twice that.

Also, my number of 9 developers working on dragons is taken as a quote from someone quoting the podcast. It may not be the most reliable, and I should check the source. I do recall someone saying that dungeons were given a team about that size (directly comparing it to Oblivion) and now that I think about it, someone probably misheard or misquoted that.

So there, the number of people involved creating dragons is not really clear, at least not yet. However, if it was 9 out of a hundred (which for all intents and purposes is as good as 1/10) I do believe that is too large a percentage. You'd be surprised how fractional most businesses, including game development, are. Many important aspects take up a very small part of a companies resources, fractions of a percent in some cases. 10% is huge.

And as far as how I determined that is too much is quite simple, really. Do we have such and such various aspects, which have been included in past games, cut from others, and requested, repeatedly, by fans? If the answer to that question is no, than the answer to "are they devoting too many resources to dragons?" is yes.

» Fri Feb 18, 2011 6:25 pm

I would get rid of Dragons for more stats, as well as a perk that introduced Dragons.

Paradox win.

» Fri Feb 18, 2011 7:57 pm

Also, my number of 9 developers working on dragons is taken as a quote from someone quoting the podcast. It may not be the most reliable, and I should check the source. I do recall someone saying that dungeons were given a team about that size (directly comparing it to Oblivion) and now that I think about it, someone probably misheard or misquoted that.

The size of the team working on dragons wasn't mentioned in the podcast. At least, if it was, I missed it first time around, and when I just re-listened to the section containing the dragon question, it wasn't mentioned - what I heard was that a "little team" was set aside to work on dragons. The only thing mentioned was that the team set aside to work on dragons was working on them for 2 years.

As for dungeons: a couple of the European magazines said that there were 8 devs working on dungeons, as opposed to 1 for Oblivion.

» Fri Feb 18, 2011 9:27 pm

If I was working on the Dragon Project 2 years and saw this post I'd probably be sad

... Althought the poll does show most people want dragons I still can't beleive people would vote Yes....

» Sat Feb 19, 2011 6:43 am

If I was working on the Dragon Project 2 years and saw this post I'd probably be sad

... Althought the poll does show most people want dragons I still can't beleive people would vote Yes....

Some people cheated the vote. I cheated. lol

» Sat Feb 19, 2011 6:35 am

I would give up dragons for... Morrowind 2

» Sat Feb 19, 2011 4:52 am

Double post

» Sat Feb 19, 2011 1:01 am

I would give up dragons for Werewolves and other Mythical creatures but only because Dragons are so typical for a RPG

» Sat Feb 19, 2011 2:52 am

No werewolves? Todd said they were experimenting with that. And come on, its Skyrim. If no werewolves then surely we will get them later in expansion. I want to travel back to Solstheim...or something cool.

» Sat Feb 19, 2011 9:54 am

Some people cheated the vote. I cheated. lol

While I assumed that might happen, I would hope that people would not. If you know you cheated, the poll becomes useless, as it's only meant to inform, rather than actually influence whether or not dragons will be in the game. I actually did not vote myself, I don't know, it just seems like...mastvrbation.

I actually expected that a majority of people would not want to give up dragons (although this is highly theoretical, if Bethesda had hyped all these imaginary features as much as they've have dragons, and then made us choose, I'm sure it would be much narrower) but the fact that anywhere from a fourth to a third of people would is enough to give Bethesda something to think about (if a dev even ever saw this poll)

They know people want all these things, but they don't know how much they want them. 1/4 of people would give up 90% of what makes Skyrim different from other TES to have have it be better in other areas, and to bring back things which have been cut before. That's a pretty statistically significant population.

» Fri Feb 18, 2011 8:35 pm

Okay, so I'm sure I'm in the minority here. But after listening to the podcast, and getting some ambiguous answers, I just want to state, unequivocally, that I really don't care about the dragons. I would much rather see other elements put into the game first.

Now, don't get me wrong. The dragons sound great. I'm sure they will be very well done, and a lot of fun. Someone in another thread said that they had 9 developers working for 2 years on them. I've also heard they had 1 guy working on dungeons in Oblivion. While the latter was too few, I feel like the former is too many.

Basically, dragons are a one time deal. After this game, it is very unlikely we will see dragons, at least for the forseeable future. On the other hand, things that should be in this game, and every game after, are not. The main things that I would give up dragons for are mounted combat, werewolves, and spears, not necessarily in that order. I would also like to see real-time boats (even just rowboats) but I'm not going to be greedy.

So, is there anything that you do not think will be included that you would happily exchange dragons for?

You pretty much summed it up there. The usual stuff that was in before Oblivion. Add immersive fast travel options, quests requiring me to think, throwable weapons, crossbows, mysticism, a bunch of Morrowind's magical effects, more overall variety as in MW, spell crafting... Another must have is religion, politics, interfering clans like in MW.
Anyway, these horses have been flogged to death.
I hope those dragons will be convincing though, nothing against having them.

» Fri Feb 18, 2011 7:44 pm

Dragons are going to be awesome. I really hope for epic boss fights with dragons. Hopefully we can get a dragon that spawns at a specific place once a week or something. Now thats an epic way to test out your new build!

» Fri Feb 18, 2011 10:30 pm

Omg why the hell does everyone want spears so badly? What is the big deal with spears? They are completely unnecessary. I would much rather have dragons than freaking spears that I may not even use. And who cares about mounted combat? The people on this forum have such ridiculous demands and opinions.

Uh, how'd you like if swords would be taken out? Twohanded swords, heavy twohanded hammers and two handed axes are all less important than spears, yet in the game.

» Sat Feb 19, 2011 4:22 am

I'd give up dragons for the things I've listed in my signature.

Fast travel services & spells, a la Morrowind.
No all-knowing quest marker. Better directions, mark whereabouts on my map.
Polearms, crossbows, thrown weapons.
PC-efficient UI, with UI keybinds.
Separate left/right pauldrons and gloves. Clothing over/under armor.

» Sat Feb 19, 2011 4:27 am

Attributes and polearms.

» Fri Feb 18, 2011 10:16 pm

I would give up dragons for... Morrowind 2

Oh god yes.

» Fri Feb 18, 2011 5:37 pm

As opposed to 1 out of 60 working on what was an equally important part of the game? And frankly, one that requires a lot more detail? If Oblivion has 130 dungeons and Skyrim has 20 dragons, which do you think warranted more attention?

they have 9 ppl working on dungeons too...... so yaaa :flamethrower:

» Sat Feb 19, 2011 6:38 am

For a proper antagonist.

» Fri Feb 18, 2011 7:08 pm

Of course I would give up dragons if I could have everything else. But the truth is, you can't have everything. Bethesda knows this, so instead of giving us a box of svcky toys to play with, they give us a box with fewer toys which are awesome to play with.

» Sat Feb 19, 2011 8:37 am

They know people want all these things, but they don't know how much they want them. 1/4 of people would give up 90% of what makes Skyrim different from other TES to have have it be better in other areas, and to bring back things which have been cut before. That's a pretty statistically significant population.

And the reply to that, of course, is that it's highly dubious that a poll on this forum is a reliable guide to the opinions of the wider gaming population interested in Skyrim.

But anyway. Like I said, I see where you're coming from. I don't really disagree with you. it strikes me as mostly a matter of taste about what you enjoy in a game like this - do you want to have extra little options and nice features here and there? Or do you want the central plot of the game to feature something just a little bit extra special? I could go either way, I guess.

What will clinch it to my mind, as to whether all this dragon stuff is a success, is whether the writing will also be up to scratch. Apparently 2 years were spent on the animation and stuff like that, for the dragons. I just hope that an equal amount of attention was devoted to designing the MQ plot, and drafting and redrafting the writing.

» Sat Feb 19, 2011 4:52 am

Rofl. Give up dragons for SPEARS? What is everyone's obsession with spears? Seems like most only want them because they were taken out. They were known to be an underused weapon type during morrowind, now they're gone and everyone claims to have used them primarily. Bizarre.

I wouldn't give up a badass bossfight type creature for any of those things. But if there's no mounted combat, i'd rather not have mounts at all.

» Sat Feb 19, 2011 12:03 am

Aren't dragons the whole reason for the game? Wouldn't want to sacrifice that.

» Sat Feb 19, 2011 1:58 am

I will not give up dragons,for ANYTHING!
I've wanted them in TES for ages,be them good or bad.
They have spent two years on getting them right,that alone should tell you how good they are going to be.

And i'll bet alot of people play a role as St george.....it's the perfect chance to do so.
Saint george and the dragon/dragons :thumbsup:

» Sat Feb 19, 2011 10:06 am

So you agree that 1 person is not enough to develop dungeons? Then I guess you shouldn't be so happy with Bethesda as the developer of Oblivion, because that's what they chose. Which is the entirety of my point, that the division of labor a lot more fractured than you'd think. If Bethesda has a 100 man team, 9 of them is 9%, and as a usable figure, about a tenth of their work force. Even IF dragons are the main focus of their game, there are still innumerable other aspects of the game to design, such as armor, weapons, animation, dungeons, exteriors, AI, creatures, races, lore, alchemy, magic, ranged combat, stealth...I could go on. Obviously some of these can be taken care of by 1 or 2 guys. But many others need a solid team of at least 3+, but probably not more than 5. So if you have 9 guys working on dragons, you have potentially 4 groups that are missing a guy, or anywhere from 1-4 groups that don't exist. And instead you have 9 guys picking their noses, getting bored, making origami footballs because there's really only so much you can put into one feature, no matter how large it is.

I think like you, many others can't see the potential for the dragons being something never before seen in gaming.

I'm really interested in how they will make it possible to fight those large creatures also visually, I believe, it's going to be very interesting. Not mentioning it as a driving force in the game. At the beginning you're very afraid of them and increasing your skills and getting better equipment will be a direct means to making those encounters survivable.

» Fri Feb 18, 2011 10:56 pm

I would not give up dragons for anything, of practical reasons. If they had to remove dragons now it would take another 3 years before the game came out, since they would have to redesign the plot, free roaming etcetera.