I really like the skill levelling system, the way my skill goes up instantly and I can level up when I want. Only being able to get perks in things I've done is sensible, I'm not going to be able to max out things I never do, like wearing heavy armour or wielding two handed weapons as I could in the Fallout games (which I loved btw). It's almost exactly what I wanted.

As for the world levelling up with you, that's what the Magika, health and stamina boosts are for, it would be pretty boring if I got stronger and there was nothing that could put up a fight.

I'll go further, all the Beth games I've played followed the same arc, hard at first, nicely challenging in the middle and by the end I'm wandering about killing anything I fancy with a stern look. Skyrim on the other hand has put me through this sequence several times, everytime I think it's getting to easy I come up against something hard to beat, not unbeatable but requiring thought.

Bethesda did NOT make FONV.

"Learning by doing" always sounds good but it's usually not balanced. FONV had it's own issues.

In general I favor BOTH. Skills raised by use AND XP from quests/killing. All methods have potential flaws/glitches/abuse so may as well use all 3 instead of gimping it to only 1 type.

It won't be perfect either way, so why scrimp on the depth and options?

I voted no. I don't think that TES would benefit from Fallout's Exp. system, however, I do think it could've benefited from it's reputation system; For example, if I go on a murderous rampage against the Imperial Legion, then logically that should negatively impact my reputation with that particular group...but of course we can't be having any of that Fallout trash in our TES games...right? ...end sarcasm.

I actually prefer the Fallout system of spending skill points at every level up, instead of having skills only level based on their use. The TES system has always had the boring necessity of grinding in order to work on the least used skills such as armour. Armour of any kind is almost always underdeveloped as a skill simply because allowing yourself to get hit enough to level it up substantially simply results in you dying a lot. With the Fallout system you could simply allocate your skill points to the armour skill without needing to sit in front of a mud crab while casting healing spells.

With the fallout system you're still having to make tradeoffs; you still get the same issues with levelling non-combat skills too much causing problems, so that part is never fixed entirely; the difference of course is that you can actively choose how many points you put into say, Pickpocketing, instead of having it unintentionally forcing you to level up every few times you swipe something from somebody's pockets.

I don't think TES will ever change over to the fallout system, and maybe it should stay that way, but from my perspective it would solve a few problems.

I'd would have preferred a system where you got experience for completing quests.

Doing all these tasks just to get some gold is rather lame most of the time. The only real rewarding quests are the ones that give you unique items.

This.

-Completing Quests and Combat should give you Combat XP which advances Character Level.
-Crafting should be completely separate and you should also have a Crafting Level.
-Skills should always move up the more you use them like the previous TES games, but not advance character level
-Bring back the concept of Primary, Major and Minor Skills and structure the perk system accordingly.
-Primary Skills become - Combat Perks
-Major Skills become - Character Perks
-Minor Skills become - Crafting Perks

Combat Perks
-2-Hand
-One-Hand
-Archery
-Destruction
-Conjuration
-Sneak
-Block
-Restoration
-Alteration
-Illusion
-Light Armor
-Heavy Armor
-*Unarmored (Added)
-*Hand-To-Hand (Added)

Character Perks
-*Security (Lockpick and Pickpocket Combined)
-Speech
-*Athletics & Acrobatics (Jumping, Running, Evasion)
-*Perception (Notice enemies, traps, deal additional damage to enemy types)
-*Diety Tree (Pick from 3 Diety branches that give you access to buffs and blessings and 1 a day powers

Crafting
-Smithing
-Alchemy
-Enchanting
-*Spellcrafting (Craft Unique Spells and Augment Existing Spells)
-*Tailoring (Craft Robes and Unarmored Clothing types)

No, I prefer Elder Scroll′s skill system over all others. I love the implementation of perks, however.

I think Fallout's skill system is pretty dumb compared to Elder Scrolls, but still fine in it's own, classic, right.

Not at all.

While level scaling can be irksome at times, I would not sacrifice the uniqueness of Skyrim's (and every post-Arena Elder Scrolls game) leveling system to lessen the annoyance of it.

The other thing to remember is that Fallout's leveling system does not fix the problem.

Sure, you have to go out and kill stuff to level up, but if you put all your points into Science or Repair, guess what? You're going to experience the same problem that you see in Skyrim.

i like the TES skill system of getting better by using something. its makes no sense just randomly placing skill points in something you might have never actually done. its not like i can go to college for 4 years taking art and philosophy classes and then simply transfer my accumulated knowledge and experience towards mechanical engineering when i graduate. that being said i dont like how they did perks in skyrim. Fallout NV perk system was much better. some of the perk trees are utterly useless and the some perks you have to take but i dont want to take at all such as the light step perk in sneaking.

I don't understand why people think it's immersive to see "Your skill has increased to ##" all the time while playing.

No, one of the trademarks of the series is the somewhat unique leveling and I do not want them to remove that.

I can't really see how that is any worse than the hundreds of other games that give you a floating "XP:+175" over the head of every creature you kill.

I enjoy the Fallout system far more. No grinding. No worrying about wasted skills leveling me. Most of all, I feel I can craft the exact character I want, which gives me a better RPing experience. It also helps that all the skills are actually relevant to the game. You can be a smooth talker as speech opens up new quests or new ways to complete quests. You can be a bar brawling unarmed badass. You can actually make your way without combat skills. That's ancillary to my main point though: I like control over my character and, honestly, I laugh at any argument of "realism" in progression in any RPG. Mechanics exist to give you the best gaming experience, period.

I would also rather gain experience for completing quests as FO does rather than for every mechanic I use in the game. Of course, it's necessary for it to be that way if your using the FO system anyway so that's a moot point, I guess. For me, from and RP standpoint, I like the feeling of reward that I accomplished something. Though, you do also get experience for using any skill in the FO games too, even outside of quests, so you're not stuck only doing quests and not exploring.

I personally hate the way you level in NV. I perfer my work on skills to improve those skills, not just do this do that get xp.

I like using my skills to actually level them up in this series. ^_^ Both styles are fine but I like the way this series works.

In all honesty, I cannot see the logic behind this argument.

"Excellent! I've now killed 10 trolls with this sword. I've learned and meditated on this battle and figured out just how to enchant my boots.."

How is that scenario anymore "roleplay immersive" than:

"Excellent! I've now killed 10 trolls with this sword. I've learned from my experiences and am now better at swinging swords."

I prefer the organic development of skills which is one of the strongest points of the Elder Scrolls series.

I don't disagree that by using skills you should be more proficient and level that skills up. I have an issue that just by using skills, this advances your CHARACTER level. I have a big issue that sitting in town whacking away at an anvil moves up my character level the same as killing a few dragons. Fighting one dragon is the same as fighting a few bandits in terms of how far it progresses your character level. It simply does not make any sense that by moving up skills, this advances your character level. It is a terrible and confusing system. Character level should be dictated by Combat XP and through the completion of Quests - period.

I'm divided on this, myself, and would actually prefer a combination system that used the best elements of both.

Based on some of the responses in this thread, I can't help but think that folks 'aren't seeing the forest for the trees' when discussing the XP-based system. While it's true that it allows you to develop skills that you haven't yet used, the end result is almost identical- a character whose highest-leveled and most-perked skills are the ones he or she is actually using during play. I do see why folks might think it odd, though, since there's something of a disconnect between skill use and character development.

One thing I definitely do not want to see come back is the whole 'you must grind +5s every level to stay competitive' nonsense, but I would not object to the return of major and minor skills. That said, I suspect the actual problem with the system in Oblivion was the fact that certain NPCs and critters had ridiculous HP and damage scalars; this meant that you really were falling further and further behind past about level 35 or so, which reduced, if not outright removed, the incentive to level beyond that point.

Perhaps separating the non combat skills from the rest might be the thing. The monsters and gear increase in power as you gain levels, but you can level up without making yourself more powerful in combat. This makes for a character that is frustrating to play since they are well versed in creating goods and opening locks but can't fight their way out of a wet paper bag.

An XP system wouldn't be much different unless you only gain xp for actually fighting stuff. Any time you gain power in some thing other than actual combat, no matter how you gain the power, you will find yourself up against things that are too strong for you to fight.

As I see it the question isn't whether they should change systems, but whether they should change the way non combat skills affect the way the game scales the creatures we find in the world as we try to get better at skills that have nothing to do with killing things.

i wouldnt have minded more of a fallout 3/new vegas leveling where you get experience for killing and completing things and increasing skills as you go

Couldn't have said it better myself. That's NOT what TES is about.

That doesn't work though, because how immersive is it for somebody with zero kill in weapon handling to be able to go out and kill anything to level their skills at all?

Fallout allows you to level skills in advance of using them, which is more realistic. Skyrim makes you level skills while using them, which is stupid; you don't learn to fight in a fight, you dedicate your time training first in a safe environment.

The TES system feels more natural as it's the characters actions that give experience points towards leveling the character, not what the character does. I could not wrap my head around Sneaking through a dungeon only to give my self 22 points in Small Gun at the next level up. That's not how life works. You don't learn how to be a better engineer by digging a ditch. You might learn that you want to be an engineer rather than a ditch digger, but you still have to learn engineering.

However, the leveling system in Fallout fits the Fallout world, but that is how those games are structured.