:facepalm: Read what he said.

Okay then you're extremely naive or lack a conscience. Which is it?

Neither, I am smart.

Because most people when given a choice between a highly corrupt democratic state or an authoritarian society where everyone's sole purpose in life is service to the state that embraces slavery (and that might well enslave you), brainwashing of children, elimination of the family unit, misogyny and the abuse of women, cruel and unusual punishment, and that lacks any respect for the rights and dignities of a human being and has no desire for progress aren't going to choose the latter unless they don't any know any better. Hell generally they choose the latter even if they don't know any better.

You won't become a slave if you follow the rules. And like I have said millions of times before, WE HAVE ONLY SEEN THEM AT WAR. We have no idea what there cities are like.

Four states that can't possibly compare to California unless the fact that we haven't seen Legion territory also suddenly means it is plausible for this territory to be highly developed and well populated when everything we know argues the opposite.

Four states couldn't compare to one... Thats the stupidest [censored] I have ever heard.

Also Caesar himself ostensibly doesn't believe in the Legion as his dream. Listen to his speech where he prattles on about Hegelian dialectics and how his eventual goal has always been the annexation of the NCR to make his Legion into something better.

What the Legion is right now is what he wanted it to be. He has just recently learned of what the NCR really had and now he wants what they have, doesn't want to be what they are.

Yeah it is. They dress like Romans, speak like Romans and even name themselves after Romans. He clearly wanted more out of Rome than their military structure. Also Rome's military machine was impressive for its time. In a world with advanced firearms it's an archaic approach. Good for overawing tribals not so good at fighting a modern opponent as the first battle at Hoover Dam showed.

LOL! The only reason they lost at the first battle for the Dam was because Graham made them pursue them into Boulder City. They had the dam taken, if they would of stayed at the Dam they would of won.

Yeah and in the Fallout universe not being completely horrible also works. Again that's the issue. If it really was a choice between well-meaning anarchy and safety under totalitarianism this would be a complex question. But the way the game presents the question it's not. It's a choice between the Legion's vision of civilization or that advocated by the NCR or that advocated by House. Both the House and the NCR options are miles ahead of the Legion from most contemporary viewpoints.

Name another faction that has taken over four entire states? Hmm thats right there is none.

Except the law you want to sacrifice any sense of morality to uphold is horribly unjust, sadistic and awful and I, and hopefully most other people on these forums could not support the sort of laws that the Legion advocates when there is an obviously better option. A law that establishes and protects slavery is not a law that deserves to be obeyed and to be executed for violating such a law is abhorrent.

There may be a better option but in the long run what the Legion are doing now is for a greater future.

@ boradam: Ok his goal is to conquer the NCR and stabilize his peace with slavery and total war, I figured that much. What is his ultimate goal for civilization? Because denying human progress isn't very civilized.

switching topics. this was meant for the other one.



Who, Caesar? I remember him talking about wanting to conquer NCR territory and institute peace under his Pax Romana. Now if there was more to it, enlighten me and correct my post instead of avoiding it.

@ boradam: Ok his goal is to conquer the NCR and stabilize his peace with slavery and total war, I figured that much. What is his ultimate goal for civilization? Because denying human progress isn't very civilized.

@ boradam: Ok his goal is to conquer the NCR and stabilize his peace with slavery and total war, I figured that much. What is his ultimate goal for civilization? Because denying human progress isn't very civilized.

Hegelian dialectics (seriously). Caesar believes when he destroys the NCR the merger between it and the Legion will produce something new better than either state. But even brushing aside the insanity of managing a state to fulfill a philosophical ideal it's a flawed concept because there is no reason for the synthesis of the two to necessarily be better than what the post-war world already has.

The synthesis between the Western Roman Empire and the invading cultures that overran it didn't lead to something better than the Empire.

Hegelian dialectics (seriously). Caesar believes when he destroys the NCR the merger between it and the Legion will produce something new better than either state. But even brushing aside the insanity of managing a state to fulfill a philosophical ideal it's a flawed concept because there is no reason for the synthesis of the two to necessarily be better than what the post-war world already has.

The synthesis between the Western Roman Empire and the invading cultures that overran it didn't lead to something better than the Empire.

I figure pacifcation, one civilization, with one purpose.
No war, No heavy reliance on machines or anything like that, an existance being controlled by themselves and not their inventions.

I think people are too comfortable to see Legion as good.
Like, "oh but I wouldn't want to live under their rule cause it would be horrible and I like my freedom."
Well, yeah it would be horrible for a lot of people.
But I see past that, screw comfort, oh you don't like being a slave? So what, you are, now deal with it.
What Legion is trying to accomplish will take a lot of decades if not a century or two, so I would not live to see their goal accomplished.
But even so I see past my comfort.
Of course NCR and House would be better to live under, there you have freedom to do almost whatever you want to.
But I consider it selfish to prioritize my comfort instead of the future.
So in a nutshell, Legion for me isn't about the "now", it's about the future, I won't live to see it, will die of old age or accident or eaten or killed.
But knowing that the world will finally rebuild itself is enough for me.
Screw what "I" want, screw what is comfortable to "me" and most definitely screw an 8 year old girl that's a slave, "we" don't matter, the future is what matters.
We are but pawns in a grander scheme, but without someone to uphold the rules the pawns will be in the hands of children that's toying around with them with no knowledge of what the game actually is.
And if I were to become a citizen, slave or legionnaire I would gladly take any role and help Legion in their cause.
Since House can only envision the future for Vegas I cannot support him, and since NCR cares about money, land and power I cannot support them either.
Legion aren't pretty, they're pretty evil, but at least they're doing something for the world, at least they have a greater goal than their own selfish comfort.

So to summarize: Screw selfish desires and comfort, what matters is the future for everyone in the wasteland. Can NCR provide this? No, they cannot, they don't care about humanity or people at all, all they care about is their own greed and prosperity, during their conquest for more wealth people manage to get integrated into the NCR, but what about the rest? If there is a tribe which agriculture is failing shouldn't NCR help them? Yes, they should. Will they? No, they won't.
And is their goal to help people? Is their goal to expand their nation and bring civilization to everyone? It is not.

I did..

here is the post in question.



No where is this magical goal stated or summarized. Gabriel states that supporting the Legion and all of its uncivilized institutions and behavior are merely a means to an end. What is that end other than to conquer, enslave and pacify the west? How can there be a future when the Legion rejects human progress?

I figure pacifcation, one civilization, with one purpose.
No war, No heavy reliance on machines or anything like that, an existance being controlled by themselves and not their inventions.

And what is so good about us progressing? We are slowly killing our planet and coming up with more and more ways to kill each other? What the hell is so good about that?

No where is this magical goal stated or summarized. Gabriel states that supporting the Legion and all of its uncivilized institutions and behavior are merely a means to an end. What is that end other than to conquer, enslave and pacify the west? How can there be a future when the Legion rejects human progress?

I've lived in both and have gotten sick of the crap I see here in America.

I would rather live in the Middle East but I can't for three more years. By the 'wrong guy' I mean someone important, I've seen lots of crime in my area and nothing was done until they did it to someone that has a standing.

Thank you for addressing this Boradam. I couldn't believe that anyone would trade human progress for stability (and that is what supporting the Legion means) but I stand corrected.

edit



Again, thank you. This clarifies everything for me. Supporters of the Legion support stability and are against human progress.

Neither, I am smart.

You won't become a slave if you follow the rules. And like I have said millions of times before, WE HAVE ONLY SEEN THEM AT WAR. We have no idea what there cities are like.

Four states couldn't compare to one... Thats the stupidest [censored] I have ever heard.

What the Legion is right now is what he wanted it to be. He has just recently learned of what the NCR really had and now he wants what they have, doesn't want to be what they are.

LOL! The only reason they lost at the first battle for the Dam was because Graham made them pursue them into Boulder City. They had the dam taken, if they would of stayed at the Dam they would of won.

Name another faction that has taken over four entire states? Hmm thats right there is none.

There may be a better option but in the long run what the Legion are doing now is for a greater future.

Does he reject human progress? One of the main reasons behind the Legion's westward campaign was to get the people out of the rut they are in in the Mojave, I'm pretty sure Lanius says that when you talking to him after the battle of Hoover Dam.

Good to hear but I wasn't questioning your intelligence.
What I meant was the smartest thing to do would be to side with the Legion.


Completely untrue. Slaves are taken upon conquest before people ever have a chance to obey Caesar's laws. And we have never seen any evidence that slavery is applied as punishment for a crime. Not that that would be something to admire. No we don't know exactly what their cities are like but we do know they will have things like slavery and all the other wonderful things I mentioned because Caesar rules over them. To pretend otherwise is just delusional.
During the war at least. It svcks because Obsidian showed the worst of the Legion and treated them like [censored], it makes it so difficult for Legion supporters to say anything because Obsidian didn't allow us anything to back it up. But I am not only talking about the New Vegas Legion I am talking about what they were supposed to be in Van Buren also.


Only if you insist on using size of territory as a benchmark with power, wealth and level of development. If you control the entire Sahara Desert and I control the state of Rhode Island which one of us is more powerful?
Who ever takes the most territory is more powerful. Just think about this if the Legion would of stayed at the dam in the first battle for the Dam the NCR might not of even been around in 2281.


What? Caesar was born and raised in the NCR he knew everything about it long before the two states met. Again go listen to Caesar's speech in the Fort where he lays out his intentions and why he considers it his destiny to conquer the NCR. He doesn't believe the Legion is an ideal society.

Yes but he was away from the NCR for a long time. They got way more powerful while we was conquering tribes.

And Graham's forces pursued into Boulder City because they were tactically inflexible and wedded to the concept of forcing a decisive battle.
They had the Dam, if they would of stayed well look above .


I've explained above why this isn't important.
Ah but it is.


What evidence is there for that? The Legion is going to reverse the substantial progress the post-war world has made. How is that a greater future?
Read my other post.

Thank you for addressing this Boradam. I couldn't believe that anyone would trade human progress for stability (and that is what supporting the Legion means) but I stand corrected.

No where is this magical goal stated or summarized. Gabriel states that supporting the Legion and all of its uncivilized institutions and behavior are merely a means to an end. What is that end other than to conquer, enslave and pacify the west? How can there be a future when the Legion rejects human progress?

Caesar and the Legion reject modern medicine and reject science and technology. So yeah, he offers humanity stability but also offers total stagnation.

Anytime, Progress doesn't mean it is for the greater good.

Take a look at Atom and Hydrogen bombs, those wouldn't have existed without progression and it wasn't for the greater good- It was for ending a war, but out of what?

Fear.

It's a reset, instead of living like leeches off of the old world they progress in their own way by rebooting humanity to a level that they can maintain.

Very true, progress doesn't always lead to nice things, but that's the wielder of science doing bad things who's at fault, not science and progress itself. What is the purpose of rejecting every liberal idea and institution achieved beyond the dark age, such as humanism, emancipation, rationalism, civil rights? Just out of fear of what humans will do when they achieve their potential?

A stagnant, stable country that rejects innovation, science, and progressive ideas makes us nothing more than a bunch of animals eating, sleeping, reproducing, and following an Alpha leader (only difference is that animals don't enslave each other ).

It's a shame to reject all that potential.

What I meant was the smartest thing to do would be to side with the Legion.

During the war at least. It svcks because Obsidian showed the worst of the Legion and treated them like [censored], it makes it so difficult for Legion supporters to say anything because Obsidian didn't allow us anything to back it up. But I am not only talking about the New Vegas Legion I am talking about what they were supposed to be in Van Buren also.

Who ever takes the most territory is more powerful. Just think about this if the Legion would of stayed at the dam in the first battle for the Dam the NCR might not of even been around in 2281.

Yes but he was away from the NCR for a long time. They got way more powerful while we was conquering tribes.

They had the Dam, if they would of stayed well look above.

Read my other post.

There is nothing saying that the reject scientific advancement, or technology, they may reject medicine simply because they do not want soldiers to get addicted to anything and becom heavily reliant on a drug, or anything for that matter.

They use guns, but train in melee! What is the purpose of even bothering to train in melee when guns are clearly the only logical method of combat? Machines break, and if they relied solely on guns then they would be devastated if they broke. Guess what this means? They don't want troops relying on something that can fail, they don't want soldiers to be dependant on something that if broken, could change a course of a battle, so they train in Melee.

But people have already "re-booted." Like I said in the other thread, the NCR didn't just pop up out of nowehere with all of its progress. It established itself after the destruction of the old world and grew. Only it doesn't reject the progress already made by humanity. Caesar rejects it totally and offers no means of achieving it under his rule as he rejects science andprogressive institutions/ideas.

Caesar may be an improvement over warring raiders and slavers, but his conquering of Vegas and California is a regression and then stagnation of human achievement.