I lived in a harsh enviroment where alot of minor things could be punishable by the Death Penalty, America has alot more crime currently, while that area has crime still, but a huge drop compared to the U.S.

I'de choose Flagstaff.

1. He doesn't allow them to use medicine so that their bodies will stay strong on their own.
2. What?

3. I thought he explained that he only allows for the people to use what they themselves can create and to not rely on old world technology cause one day it will fail and it's better to restart anew and grow strong with the knowledge at hand.

4. I see no atomic warheads in Caesa'rs camp.
5. Isn't it a necessity for the one in charge to be able to control his/her/their people?
6. Wrong.
7. Wrong.
8. So is BOS and NCR.
9. The reason I'm annoyed at these threads: Legion got shafted in FNV...

10. I don't trust the GECK's "karma" crap really, I like to make my own opinions about people, I'm sure Master would be considered evil in the GECK if FO1 had one but I still consider him a man with a noble vision.



Well since I know what Caesar wants I'd want to support Legion even if I was in the Fallout universe.
If I was in the Fallout universe and didn't know squat about Caesar's Legion then I'd probably be a bit frightened of them.
I wouldn't exactly waltz up towards a legionnaire and ask to speak to Caesar yknow.
But yes, from what "I" know of Legion I'd support Legion even if I became a six slave.

From my personal perspective it's this, idd rather be a free man with fear then a man who has a stable life but that life is controlled by others.
I see Caesars legion just as another group of people who tries to tell other people how to live (by cruesefiction and fear), and that is just not cool. (i know, the NCR does this to but not as much)

1. they guard their caravans properly

That is true. In Legion territory, caravans travel unguarded in safety. Any smart raiders have long since left Legion territory for the lawless areas of the wasteland, Dumb ones have been caught by Legion troops and either killed in battle or crucified. The Legion understands that the purpose of a judicial system is to eradicate crime, and they do it with a vengeance.


2.they arent huge on annexeing for funds

Absolutely false, on 86 fronts. They have been annexing tribes since they formed, and they do it for persoanl gain. The fact that they gain slaves, territory, and material goods instead pf bottlecaps ir not relevant.


3. they actual have feelings (they murder a tribe,then they spare any who join them (only male)

First, that's not entirely true. They exterminated one tribe as an example to others. The tribes that they forcibly absorb, the men and elderly are killed, the women are enslaved, and the boys are turned into Legionaries. The tribes they absorb peacefully, there are fewer killings, but families are broken up. A man will have his wife taken away, though he might receive another wife from a future conquered tribe. THis is done to eradicate cultural and tribal identity. The overall goal is to create a homogenous people who are loyal only to the Legion.


4.ceaser isent a total dike

No, he's worse.


5.they take war as a main importance (walk into the strip and gaze at all the useless NCR and you will know what i mean)

War is the worst of human inventions. We need only look at the shattered, irradiated world to understand that. The original Roman Empire was noted as much for bringing peace as it was for waging war. Robbers and pirates were exterminated, tribal warfare was ended, and a (usually) impartial system of justice was imposed.


6. when they enslave people they are really saving them from the harsh wastes(which makes alot of sense when thought about)

They can do that without enslaving them. If the Legion is really the answer to humankind's woes, why do people have to be forced into it?


In many areas, we must keep an open mind about the Legion, because we have no idea how people live inside its borders. The original Roman Empire brought war, slavery, and barbaric "justice". However, it brought a level of safety and a standard of living that people did not see again for over a millenium. To put it another way, we only see the Legion bring out the worst thuings that the original Empire had to offer. What else does Caesar bring to the table?

You can say the same thing to anyone.

America had a revolution and civil war, why couldn't they do it peacefully?

Europe had a crusade, why couldn't they do it peacefully?

War is cruel, why do nations get forced into it?

Would you feel differently if it was your child. wife, best friend that was crusified for something minor?

NCR has laws and do have a justice system thats isn't simply to kill everyone no matter what they did.

I might be rusty on my Legion lore but where does it state that:
You steal something? Crucified.
You murder someone? Crucified.
You [censored] someone? Crucified.
You talk back to a legionnaire? Crucified.
You resist or refuse to do something a legionnaire commands you to do? Crucified.

Somehow I really doubt this answer if you were faced with the actual choice.



The right thing being to wipe out all the progress the world has made since the War so a man who's read too many books can live out his Roman fantasies. Yes they have brought safety and stability. Remember who else did that? The NCR. That's the problem. Caesar's Legion versus NCR (or House) isn't a choice between well-meaning anarchy and oppressive security but between safety and security under a corrupt democracy (or detached businessman) or safety and security under a horribly brutal dictatorship. There is no good reason to pick the latter.

Caesar can only dream of creating a state as industrialized, settled and wealthy as the NCR. That's why he wants to conquer it.

It is a cop out because we know Caesar approves of the things I mentioned and incorporates them into the Legion that he has total control over. To pretend they don't exist in Legion territory just because we haven't seen Legion territory beyond the front-lines is ridiculous. Raul only mentions how stable Arizona is compared to what it used to be. He doesn't say anything about the methods they used to achieve that stability which we all know are pretty horrible.

Apples and oranges. No one's talking about political differences here he's pointing out the very valid fact that the Legion doesn't seem to attract many volunteers for the same reason you don't see too many Chinese trying to cross the North Korean border. Very few people are going to choose to live in such a horrible state when they have a better alternative.

Hm, slave treatment:
http://www.nma-fallout.com/forum/album_page.php?pic_id=4454
http://www.nma-fallout.com/forum/album_page.php?pic_id=4455
http://www.nma-fallout.com/forum/album_page.php?pic_id=4456

[edit: links messed up.]

True but they did kill everyone in Nipton for pretty much being low lives. They crusfied Khans for being drug makers/dealers. We have not seen what justice system they have but going by their actions they don't have much of one. It would be harsh and to the point. That point being the point of one of their blades. Casear and his men are the Legion, they are the law. One would think going against them would be a criminal offence. Sure you may not get crusified. You may become a slave insted or have part of your body cut off.

Still have to see a Roman town to see if life is really that bad in Caesars Empire. Still based on their actions and the people in the Mojave, they arn't getting to many volunteers to settle in Legion lands.

My wife left me there, my older son was born there before he died, and my friend was executed for a public fight.

Their law's would not be as effective, while I have experienced things I can't describe, I am going to say it keeps people in line and keeps them from breaking laws unlike other things.

I feel bad for asking that question :sadvaultboy: .

I am not bashing the Legion. I just need to see what life is like outside of the Legion Army. One could turn my question around "How you you feel to see someone that did something horrible to your family get crusified?" I would feel pretty damn good.

They seem like they would ok. Not the best but good enough. Don't like how they can be hypocrites sometimes, however. Wish we could see some Legion territory . If I could be crucified for a crime that isn't considered a felony, I'd take my chances with raiders. Getting shot and dying in a few minutes/seconds beats being nailed to a cross for hours any day.

We all do, I feel as if they would function similar to what I reconize, but if not then I'de be glad to see it at the least.

Thats because america treats criminals like little children. They let people get off with the stupidest stuff and further more sometimes the sentence they get is to good for them.

Do you know why they treat them like children?

Because no one in the government knows how to enforce rules.

Dude, I have already said that I would live in Flagstaff and for good reason, don't doubt [censored]. I gave my honest answer deal with it. And Caesar already has FOUR states to himself! They are what his dream is not what the NCR has, get that through your head. And it isn't his roman fantasies, he modeled his army after the Romans because they were an unstoppable force. As for the methods being horrible, I have stated that before. Horrible works, thats why he has conquered 87 tribes and four states. The Legion would have New Vegas already if Graham had not attacked the NCR at Boulder City. And there is many reasons to pick the latter, the only time you are going to get any sort of punishment in the Legion is if you break the rules. The Legion has rules that are realistic to follow, you break them you die simple as that. Crime shouldn't go unpunished, and killing those who commit a crime the best thing to do, I would prefer if our society today killed any criminals, petty thief's, doesn't matter. You break the law and rules you die, this keeps things running smooth and so you know not to break the law. What happens in the NCR? Many of those Powder Gangers were murderers and they get sent to a prison and are given dynamite? Not only is the NCR corrupt its stupid. The Legion may be brutal and have methods that are unheard of in the NCR, but the methods hurt and they don't hide there bad side unlike the NCR.

Garuntee you we know how to enforce the rules. Its just that we dont wanna. People can get away with murder. By having double jeopardy.

Governments that do not enforce law's are not effective, one's that do are.

That is what I mean, America doesn't enforce laws and because of that criminals walk free and about and do whatever they want until they do it to the wrong guy.

Not everyone in the Legion is evil on the G.E.C.K. Lucius, Antony, Lucellus, Alexus and others are neutral.

And sometimes they treat children like advlts.

Live where I live where people got double time served. For every day they spent waiting for their trail and the time spent on the trail they got 2 days off their final sentence and they don't even have to be in jail. There have been people that should have got 10 years but in the end only got 5 or less.

Anyways going off topic so I will stop :foodndrink:

I dont know what your implying by a "wrong guy" Do you mean like a Gov. official, police officer, or etc. But also would you rather live in AMERICA or in some 3rd world country??

I've lived in both and have gotten sick of the crap I see here in America.

I would rather live in the Middle East but I can't for three more years. By the 'wrong guy' I mean someone important, I've seen lots of crime in my area and nothing was done until they did it to someone that has a standing.

Okay then you're extremely naive or lack a conscience. Which is it?

Because most people when given a choice between a highly corrupt democratic state or an authoritarian society where everyone's sole purpose in life is service to the state that embraces slavery (and that might well enslave you), brainwashing of children, elimination of the family unit, misogyny and the abuse of women, cruel and unusual punishment, and that lacks any respect for the rights and dignities of a human being and has no desire for progress aren't going to choose the latter unless they don't any know any better. Hell generally they choose the latter even if they don't know any better.



Four states that can't possibly compare to California unless the fact that we haven't seen Legion territory also suddenly means it is plausible for this territory to be highly developed and well populated when everything we know argues the opposite.

Also Caesar himself ostensibly doesn't believe in the Legion as his dream. Listen to his speech where he prattles on about Hegelian dialectics and how his eventual goal has always been the annexation of the NCR to make his Legion into something better.



Yeah it is. They dress like Romans, speak like Romans and even name themselves after Romans. He clearly wanted more out of Rome than their military structure. Also Rome's military machine was impressive for its time. In a world with advanced firearms it's an archaic approach. Good for overawing tribals not so good at fighting a modern opponent as the first battle at Hoover Dam showed.



Yeah and in the Fallout universe not being completely horrible also works. Again that's the issue. If it really was a choice between well-meaning anarchy and safety under totalitarianism this would be a complex question. But the way the game presents the question it's not. It's a choice between the Legion's vision of civilization or that advocated by the NCR or that advocated by House. Both the House and the NCR options are miles ahead of the Legion from most contemporary viewpoints.



Except the law you want to sacrifice any sense of morality to uphold is horribly unjust, sadistic and awful and I, and hopefully most other people on these forums could not support the sort of laws that the Legion advocates when there is an obviously better option. A law that establishes and protects slavery is not a law that deserves to be obeyed and to be executed for violating such a law is abhorrent.