So I'm working on a quest mod - a rather complicated one - and I want to get the opinion of people who play quests, not just make them. How much detective work can you reasonably stand in mod? Do you find searching for answers fun - even if you don't find the right answer the first time?

Example one: You are given a key. The key could possible work in one of four doors in Cyrodill. You know were the doors are, but getting to them might be a bit of a pain. There will be work involved. Bloody work. You get the idea. Now you might get lucky and find the right door on the first try. Or you could not find it until the fourth try, after hours (real life, not game time) of searching. Are you frustrated?

I, personally, would see that as immersive. Tiring, but immersive. What do you think? (There would be hints as to which was the right door, but some people might not get the hints).

Example two: Oblivion journal entries tend to be rather ... helpful. "I just found the moth-eaten potted plant in the Tiber Septim Hotel. I'll bet Mothra has just invaded Cyrodill. I should go immediately to the Gilded Carafe to buy an Elixir of Termination, known to be the only thing that will kill Mothra." Or ... you get the idea.

I prefer the Morrowind variety which are more realistic. "Today I noted something has been eating the leaves of the plants in the Tiber Septim. Something ... big. I might want to be on the lookout for insecticide."

Those are silly examples. The point is: I find complicated, riddle driven quests, intriguing. Think Blood & Mud. Do you? (Just trying to get a feel for the line between difficult and outright annoying).

~ Dani ~

I'm with you. A quest mod like the one you're working shouldn't be blissfully easy and able to be completed in the space of an hour. Morrowind, imo, handled journal hints much better! Less hand holding and more 'get off your butt and go look!'.

:rofl: I'd say you're right on track for a great mod.

I am extremely amused by your journal metaphor... ahem
I find it to be interesting, whats the fun in a quest if your handed everything? But then again I come from the time of morrowind and the BG series... so it might end up comeing down to the person and if they are new to rpg or if they have been around the block a few times.

So long as the quest isnt timed or you must finish it before anything else can be done in game, I dont think it should matter. Clues however are always good.

I wouldn't find the first scenario you describe with the doors annoying, unless all four doors didn't work.

With respect the journal entry, I also agree that there can be too much detail and hand-holding. I know game companies have tried to dumb down content in RPGs in recent years to make them appeal to a broader audience, but I do like quests where the answer may not be obvious and even where there may not always be a "right" choice - but rather having to select among the lesser of two or more evils.

^^ This!!!, IMO. I love stuff like this unless it is SO obscure I never would have thought of it. Then it would not be annoying but frustrating. Not necessarily a bad thing.

However, consider yourself too. As the modder of this, you are going to be flung 500 questions on where, what, why from people who don't ... well see my signature .

that sounds awsome! mod's like that is the best ones

Obscure answer - that reminds me of a very old adventure game I played on the Apple II where you got near the end of the game and there was a fog bank, and if you went into the fog you died. Nothing I tried could get me through the fog...until...finally...I typed

"cut fog with sword"

And it went away...

Yeah, I'll admit that was a bit frustrating. But if you keep it realistic and not ridiculous it would be good in my book.

I'll go with the sentiments already voiced - quest mods should require thinking. Oblivion was a liitle too simplistic in this respect and I am always looking for a new/ interesting/ challenging quest mod.

The way I see it, condensed down, you're asking "Do you want to be led everywhere and have everything handed to you, or do you mind actually having to play the game?" Need I really even state an answer to that? ( :sigh: Given what passes for games these days, I guess I'd better...just in case) LOVING the sound of it. But then I recall a game of old (old, old, old) where one of my favorite features was a legitimate dead-end trap. You walked into a small room, and a door closed behind you. The way out? Pffft...reload your last save, and don't walk into that room again. The only concession made was the trap being very, very early in the game to minimize the "maximum inconvenience done" to folks who didn't save habitually and often.

And that's a fair enough question. But look around the forum. How many times do you see a post like the following:

"HELP ME!!! I CANNOT FIND THE FREAKIN' DOORWAY TO THE OBLIVION BATHROOM!!!"

Or something to that effect.

~ Dani ~

I generally agree with all of the posters thus far, and I think you'll find that most here will probably answer the same way because most feel that Oblivion held your hand too much (myself included).

However, it is worth bearing in mind that it is entirely possible to go too far. Especially in computer games, where unless you're really careful with what options you give the computer for possible correct answers, puzzles can sometimes feel like trying to psychically read the mind of the designer, or try one of a dozen plausible and reasonable answers until you find the one that actually got programmed in. Both of these are immensely frustrating.

Make it immersive. But also give the player the resources to actually solve it - not just be forced to play guessing games. For instance, in your first example, it might, perhaps, be easiest and most thorough to try all four - but for a player to decide to undertake some sort of investigation to try to narrow things down not only makes sense, but should be rewarded.

I second this.



This, I think is the most critical aspect to consider. As the mod creator, your clues will appear to be blindingly obvious. YOU know what you are referring to.
To me the player, some obsure reference to the number of angels on the head of a pin is going to make me give up in disgust or pester you for answers.

The best thing to do would be to gather several people you feel comfortable with to discuss and read your quest outline.
The opinions you get will help you determine just how difficult or easy you should make the clues.

Indeed, hence my explanatory follow-on to said question.

Perhaps I'm not the best one to ask about such things...with regard to the dead-end locked-room trap I mentioned, let me add that I loved it despite spending no less than 3 hours searching that room for a nonexistent way out. I'm what you might call "a wee bit stubborn."

I think it's ironic you're pointing to Blood & Mud as an example of "doing it right" because I for one found that they were being far too subtle with things. I spent several days of real time trying to figure out how to even get things started, and never actually found what I was looking for.

I like quests that force you to think, that don't use the Tamriel GPS Network™ to show you the way, that don't spell out in excruciating detail every little thing in the journals, but I also don't like it when you're given a quest mod with no obvious way to start it.

Somewhere in the middle there's a balance to be struck, and I think that's what's hardest to find.

I think it's fair to have your four doors and one key and bloody work to try it out, so long as the bloody work also provides something interesting. I mean, suppose I pay attention for clues, but I try to get too clever (or not clever enough) and long story short, I guess wrong. So I spend a couple hours hacking through a dungeon and at the end it doesn't work.

Well, I'm not that into dungeons for their own sake, and I did pay attention, so now I'm annoyed. Unless the author put in something here for me too. This dungeon could provide some illuminating backstory, some not-too-valuable (but unique) treasures, or some good puzzles on the way down through the levels. If this condition is met, and the other three dungeons are not just there to confuse me somehow, then I say all's fair.

Of course a riddle/puzzle/detective work is great at first sight, but I think the hard part is to find the perfect balance. Some quest makers tend to forget that the player didn't sit in front of the CS for endless hours to script/set up the riddle. The solution is etched on the memory of the modder so it seems logical and rather easy for him. But the player is annoyed because he can't find the solution. On the other hand a riddle with a very obvious solution is no riddle.

You always need to think about the player perspective when making puzzles. Does the average player even know the place I let him look for? Would I think of this when I would play a huge open world game with dozens of mods where my mod is only one of many?

I was indeed annoyed by some mods that had riddles I just couldn't find the solution for. And (if I may say so ) it was not because I'm stupid or lazy. It was because the modder thought he had a good riddle when in reality the solution to his riddle was almost impossible to find for someone who didn't think up the riddle himself. That is extremely annoying because in the end you can either uninstall the mod or ask for help in the forum thread, which is not what I would call and immersive gaming experience.

I also don't like too much trial and error. I never liked the 'find the dungeon' part in MW for example, thank god Oblivion has quest markers for that. If I want to have that kind of 'fun' I put my car key somewhere I don't remember. Your first example (the four doors thing) sounds reasonable though, at least I would know that I will find the right door sooner or later.

Of course hand holding all the time kills every quest unless you have a very good story and/or fantastic visuals. And even then a good riddle will make the quest even better.

Good point. I actually did have to come to the forum to figure out how to start Blood & Mud.

For starting, I'm leaning towards Ervin's excellent example in The Aylied Steps. The player will be given a general direction. Then, if that doesn't work, they can come back for a hint. If that doesn't work, they can come back for specific details. This will posted on the thread release site here on the forum, so they won't have to search far.

~ Dani ~

I never played Morrowind, but I like what i hear about its way of handling quest clues without much handholding.

I agree with Arthmoor above that B&M is a little too subtle, I have it on my current install, but am not sure how to start the quest - I remember sleeping in a certain dubious location on a previous playthrough, but it is something that I did by pure accident :whistling: than conscious decision.

I like how KDQ does things - some of the quest items you look for are in places that you would probably run into anyway doing vanilla quests (like that finding names on stones quest, one stone just outside Vilverin when the player exists the prison sewer, one is in shadeleaf copse where Sinderion sends the player etc.). So my suggestion is to let the player start the quest by keeping the first quest trigger in a location where the player is bound to run into (not notes handed to player or dream sequences or midnight visitors, we've had enough of those!).

Quests puzzles should be hard to figure out, but should involve some knowledge of lore, some knowledge of game NPCs, and some obvious hints in case the player tries doing things wrong too many times. In you example, if the player tries the key on the first lock too many times, a quest entry could pop up indicating that maybe this is not the right door, and a trip back to the quest giver might open some new ideas).

Okay, please forgive another example, direct from Oblivion:

Version 1: You are told to find someone in Anvil. You are given their name. You go Anvil. Suddenly, everyone in Anvil has a topic with the person's name in their dialog options. You click on that and the NPC says, "Nope, never heard of that person, but you might try the _______." Which, of course, is exactly where the person is.

Version 2: You are told to find someone in Anvil. You are given their name. Maybe only part of their name. You go to Anvil. No helpful, intuitive NPCs. Not even a topic in the dialog. You go the fighter's guild. No one by that name there. Mages Guild? Nope. And so on ... until you see a character at an inn with the name. Click on the person ... and presto! You got it.

My version would be, of course, number 2. Too hard?

~ Dani ~

Not hard, but annoying imo. A limit CRPGs have is that you can't talk about everything you like with NPCs. Why not add at least one more option if it makes sense? What would you do if you were looking for someone in a very small town? I would ask the people living there whether they know the person I'm looking for. If your mod doesn't give me the option to do that it is annoying because it is a waste of time and restricts me from doing something that is so obvious that everyone would do it in my situation.

Fair enough. What if you asked and they said they didn't know? In other words, you get an immersive answer, but not something that points you directly at the NPC (and in fact, may not help you in any way because the person may be new to town, whatever)?

~ Dani ~

I enjoyed Morrowind's lack of hand holding and the fact that there was no GPS system to guide the way, but at the same time, the journal the player kept was useless to me. I never knew what was from what quest half the time, and I started quests often. Like, up to ten a in game day. And I never knew when they were done, most of the time.

Morrowind did the hints right, Oblivion did the quest handling right.

Plus, I tend to wander around twenty or so possible locations, checking and rechecking each area when looking for a item which may or may not be in the dungeon I'm in, before trying another room in the same dungeon. But then again, I have OCD, so I'm one of the more "determined" players. If I can't get it right the first twenty times, I might try another way for a little while.

I actually have a very similar thing happening in a quest mod I'm working on. You are sent out to find someone in Leyawiin who sells a rare drug that can only be found in Black Marsh. You can ask everyone in Leyawiin about the drug (via dialogue topic), but the answer you get depends on the person you're talking to. Guards will arrest you, regular people will know nothing about it, nobles will threaten to call the guards etc. Only Argonian beggars and the Argonians working in the tavern where the dealer resides will give you a clue where to find him (and only if disposition is high enough). That way there isn't too much hand holding but the player can still do what he would normally do. If he is stupid he will even be punished for it (ask a guard about drugs...).

In your case I would just think about who the person is the player is asking for. If he is a dockworker only lower class people at the Anvil docks might have heard about him. It depends on who he is and what he does.

What about an intermediary? I see three options here.

First: Vanilla Oblivion option (tell the character to turn left), which is to semi-subtly give away the location of the character you need to find.

Second: Leave it up to the player (tell the character nothing), which is is challenging, but at the same time might frustrate people when no one in town can give you anything helpful, including myself, there should be at least someone who can help you out, but not everyone, like in scenario 1.

Third: tell the character to turn right three times. In this scenario, you point the player in the wrong direction a few times so that you can eventually point him in the right direction (sort of subtly funneling the player to the place he is supposed to find). You can be as specific as you want as to who will give the player the first nudge, and exactly how specific your hint is (don't make it too much so, but don't just leave the player high and dry, either). This, IMHO, is how I would work things out to try to allow the player a means of solving the investigation without frustrating him and at the same time preserve that feeling of searching for an answer.

I figured I will put my two cents in...even though I only actually skimmed over the first paragraph (not the entire story of this post).
When it comes to detective work in Oblivion, I don't mind spending a long time searching...so long as I know I am doing things right. When I am tossed out into no where with not even a general basis of who to ask or where to go to get the first clue and it is all up to me to solve the mystery with absolutely nothing to go by....I find that annoying (And believe me, I have played a bunch of quests like that)
And I know many hate the green GPS arrow over what you need to do, but I think sometimes it may help including that in your detective work.